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Old 12-16-2013, 01:29 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Sorry to disagree on both paragraphs.

The first one is just not true, specially the bold part, and we have already a few documentaries stating how difficult it is to get a spot on a lower than low soccer team and actually making a salary for yourself alone. I understand this is not the general idea international community has, but it is what it is.

It is considered a real lottery to get a job in a small team, where talent will certainly help, but without luck and the right people to guide you, you won't be able to pay for your own expenses and normally will have to have a second job or give up your dream for good. A Cinderella story has this connotation of reaching success throughout all odds and adversities, which are countless in Brazil.

For the second paragraph, you can certainly count a good Jiu Jitsu base to be not less than equivalent to the "some wrestling" required you mentioned. Yes, it is important to learn wrestling when heading toward the big dogs in MMA, but in US, wrestling is part of school/college curriculum, in Brazil, not really, and during a TUF time span, Chael won`t be able teach more than tips to his team. Therefore, the old and good BJJ will have to do it for the grappling aspect.

A good BJJ base plus striking is match for wrestling + striking, not less. Remember most elite wrestlers use their wrestling skills to maintain the fight standing when facing an elite BJJ fighter, so their striking will be the differential in that case.
Sorry. I wasnt clear. What im saying is, in Brazil you can get the very best football training on the planet. Even if you play on the street, it's better then the training many of the kids get in the UK. Of course, to get a top football paid job is another story. But as far as training/practising football goes, Brazil is great. Basically, everything you need to become very good at football is available to you in Brazil.

I don't believe a good BJJ game + striking is enough to compete in MMA. You only have to look at the recent fight between Shileds and Maia. Both of them have shit striking, with Maia probably the better of the two. Both of them have excellent BJJ, again with Maia probably shading it. But Shields won the fight with superior wrestling. Maia, or any fighter, will never learn the wrestling aspect of elite MMA in Brazil. Im guessing there probably isnt a single gym in Brazil that has any wrestlers remotely close to Sonnens quality.
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Old 12-16-2013, 06:12 PM   #22 (permalink)
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This was on a q and a with chael,in London i believe. He suggested that anderson needed to be on the show whether it was in his corner or wands.
He said that Anderson's wealth of knowledge would be amazing for the Brazilian contestants to tap into.

Chael said he needs to be there to help train the guys.

Could not agree more.
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Old 12-16-2013, 06:31 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Sorry. I wasnt clear. What im saying is, in Brazil you can get the very best football training on the planet. Even if you play on the street, it's better then the training many of the kids get in the UK. Of course, to get a top football paid job is another story. But as far as training/practising football goes, Brazil is great. Basically, everything you need to become very good at football is available to you in Brazil.
No, man. Not even close to the truth. You are referring to the raw talented kids who play soccer in many courts all over the country. Brazil has not the best training or facilities or professionalism or infrastructure or safety or security or respect to the athletes or public in comparison to countries in Europe. There is where the best of everything is and that's why most soccer players want to go overseas and when they can, the improvement in their game and career is remarkable. How many great Brazilian soccer players won best player of the year while playing here in Brazil? It is pretty similar to what happen to Brazilian fighters. They are naturally gifted and need to find a good Gym to start up, but those who can, go and train overseas.

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I don't believe a good BJJ game + striking is enough to compete in MMA. You only have to look at the recent fight between Shileds and Maia. Both of them have shit striking, with Maia probably the better of the two. Both of them have excellent BJJ, again with Maia probably shading it. But Shields won the fight with superior wrestling. Maia, or any fighter, will never learn the wrestling aspect of elite MMA in Brazil. Im guessing there probably isnt a single gym in Brazil that has any wrestlers remotely close to Sonnens quality.
I didn`t say nor believe the bold part of this quote, Soo.
Chael will not teach in a few sessions useful wrestling to those with zero wrestling.
I said BJJ is enough if you have no wrestling going to a TUF where you could be facing young fighters lacking experience in BJJ themselves. Again, heading to the big dogs, you'll have to master many disciplines and wrestling is a MUST, indeed.
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Old 12-16-2013, 07:34 PM   #24 (permalink)
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No, man. Not even close to the truth. You are referring to the raw talented kids who play soccer in many courts all over the country. Brazil has not the best training or facilities or professionalism or infrastructure or safety or security or respect to the athletes or public in comparison to countries in Europe. There is where the best of everything is and that's why most soccer players want to go overseas and when they can, the improvement in their game and career is remarkable. How many great Brazilian soccer players won best player of the year while playing here in Brazil? It is pretty similar to what happen to Brazilian fighters. They are naturally gifted and need to find a good Gym to start up, but those who can, go and train overseas.
Let me put it this way. If I spend a whole week roaming around the beaches and streets of random Brazilian towns/citys, how may kids will I see playing football? In the UK, I dont see barely any. Maybe 1 game being played on the saturday in my local park. Hardly any kids having a kickaround. Whereas in Brazil, football is *everywhere*. If you took a poor kid in Brazil, whos only form of training was playing with his friends, he would *still* be better then most UK kids who are actually training and playing for a football team. Because the facts are the Brazilian kid has probably played 10x more football then the UK lad. So, what you might call "raw talented kids who play soccer in many courts all over the country" are still getting far better training then many of the UK based kids who are supposed to be getting proper training.

to be clear. I dont know this from personal experience. Rather talking to my few Brazilian friends, and being reasonably well educated regards world football.



As for TUF. Sure, having Sonnen for a few weeks wont do much for them... but it'll do a lot more then having Wandy for those same weeks instead.
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Old 12-16-2013, 08:38 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Let me put it this way. If I spend a whole week roaming around the beaches and streets of random Brazilian towns/citys, how may kids will I see playing football? In the UK, I dont see barely any. Maybe 1 game being played on the saturday in my local park. Hardly any kids having a kickaround. Whereas in Brazil, football is *everywhere*. If you took a poor kid in Brazil, whos only form of training was playing with his friends, he would *still* be better then most UK kids who are actually training and playing for a football team. Because the facts are the Brazilian kid has probably played 10x more football then the UK lad. So, what you might call "raw talented kids who play soccer in many courts all over the country" are still getting far better training then many of the UK based kids who are supposed to be getting proper training.

to be clear. I dont know this from personal experience. Rather talking to my few Brazilian friends, and being reasonably well educated regards world football.
I understand we are not really disagreeing with each other. What you are calling "training" is actually kids learning by playing recreationally and indeed ther's a court each corner here. Yes, amateur and recreational soccer can make you very good at it, but when speaking of real professional training, European leagues are light years ahead regarding organization and structure in comparison to Brazil.
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Old 12-16-2013, 08:50 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I understand we are not really disagreeing with each other. What you are calling "training" is actually kids learning by playing recreationally and indeed ther's a court each corner here. Yes, amateur and recreational soccer can make you very good at it, but when speaking of real professional training, European leagues are light years ahead regarding organization and structure in comparison to Brazil.
I dont see the difference. The best form of training football is playing football. Doesn't matter where or how. Playing = training. But yes... we mainly agree. Still worth continuing the conversation. Its interesting, no?

Lets look at the Brazil international team and the top Europeans. At the moment, Spain and Germany. All 3 teams are excellent.

Now, consider what Spain and Germany had to do to reach this level. they had to spend a LOT of money setting up academeys and infrastructure to nurture very young boys and turn them into technically sound footballers. It takes over a decade to develop these teams.

Now look at Brazil. They don't have academeys. They dont have any kind of complex infrastructure in place. They dont really do anything special at all, and yet historical produce elite players year in year out. All developed from kids pissing around with a football on the street/beach for hours on end. Germany and Spain had to make monumental efforts to produce a single generation of excellent players. Something which Brazil does every few years without even trying. If the most important thing to you is playing football, there is no better country in the world.

Shame they suck at so many other sports.
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Old 12-16-2013, 11:19 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I dont see the difference. The best form of training football is playing football. Doesn't matter where or how. Playing = training. But yes... we mainly agree. Still worth continuing the conversation. Its interesting, no?

Lets look at the Brazil international team and the top Europeans. At the moment, Spain and Germany. All 3 teams are excellent.

Now, consider what Spain and Germany had to do to reach this level. they had to spend a LOT of money setting up academeys and infrastructure to nurture very young boys and turn them into technically sound footballers. It takes over a decade to develop these teams.

Now look at Brazil. They don't have academeys. They dont have any kind of complex infrastructure in place. They dont really do anything special at all, and yet historical produce elite players year in year out. All developed from kids pissing around with a football on the street/beach for hours on end. Germany and Spain had to make monumental efforts to produce a single generation of excellent players. Something which Brazil does every few years without even trying. If the most important thing to you is playing football, there is no better country in the world.

Shame they suck at so many other sports.
Oh, it could be me throwing the to my own country, don't worry. There's only incentive and highlight to soccer (the game, not the athlete) here for the money it generates over the masses, making people to forget about perennial issues and govern wrongdoings. All other sports are practically ignored and to go to Olympics, for example, many athletes must sponsor themselves, gather help of relatives or even borrow equipment for training. There's no way to compete and to be successful against countries that take sports seriously like that and those who actually get any medal deserve all the respect they can get.

Brazil selection is a good team, for it is composed by local based talents but counting with the quality and experience of players working on international leagues. Local Brazil based teams, in the other hand, although having some good quality athletes, are miles behind local European teams and normally having debts os millions of dollars and delaying or simply not paying the salaries of many players. It's a mess.

The difference between playing on a public court recreationally is that you lack orientation and you probably will improve to a limit your own skills. When you are in a academy or club, you get in touch with teamwork and and game schemes and strategies. That's why Brazilian selection normally has the best players, which normally make a difference, but as a team, sometimes falls short in comparison to other selections. That's another reason Brazilians shine and are so wanted in Europe. A Brazilian talent learning European game strategies in a disciplined and organized environment is great asset for any big team.
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Old 12-17-2013, 04:22 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Oh, it could be me throwing the to my own country, don't worry. There's only incentive and highlight to soccer (the game, not the athlete) here for the money it generates over the masses, making people to forget about perennial issues and govern wrongdoings. All other sports are practically ignored and to go to Olympics, for example, many athletes must sponsor themselves, gather help of relatives or even borrow equipment for training. There's no way to compete and to be successful against countries that take sports seriously like that and those who actually get any medal deserve all the respect they can get.

Brazil selection is a good team, for it is composed by local based talents but counting with the quality and experience of players working on international leagues. Local Brazil based teams, in the other hand, although having some good quality athletes, are miles behind local European teams and normally having debts os millions of dollars and delaying or simply not paying the salaries of many players. It's a mess.

The difference between playing on a public court recreationally is that you lack orientation and you probably will improve to a limit your own skills. When you are in a academy or club, you get in touch with teamwork and and game schemes and strategies. That's why Brazilian selection normally has the best players, which normally make a difference, but as a team, sometimes falls short in comparison to other selections. That's another reason Brazilians shine and are so wanted in Europe. A Brazilian talent learning European game strategies in a disciplined and organized environment is great asset for any big team.
Agreed. On paper, any kid training in a European academy should be getting a more solid training base then a Brazilian lad. That's the theory anyway. But from what I can actually see, the Brazilian youths are far better to begin with, even though they dont have the facilities. As you point out, this is likely because a Brazilian youth typically has very little else to do then play football, seeing as all other sports are mainly ignored!

Im certainly not saying that Brazilians are somehow genetically built to play football. But that they play so much of it that by the time they are 10 years old, they already have far better base skills then your typical 10 year old European. As you say, all thats left is to train them in tactics. But in the UK, our youngsters are seriously lacking in base skills. So they have to be taught technique as well as tactics.

I know the situation in Brazil is hard at the moment. It might sound silly of me saying "Brazil is so cool if you want to play football" when so many of these kids also have to deal with robbery, murder, drugs and other such wonderful street nuances. Im speaking strictly from a football perspective. Its a great place for playing football. Maybe not so much for anything else, right now!

I think we're on the same page here really.
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Old 12-17-2013, 09:21 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Agreed. On paper, any kid training in a European academy should be getting a more solid training base then a Brazilian lad. That's the theory anyway. But from what I can actually see, the Brazilian youths are far better to begin with, even though they dont have the facilities. As you point out, this is likely because a Brazilian youth typically has very little else to do then play football, seeing as all other sports are mainly ignored!

Im certainly not saying that Brazilians are somehow genetically built to play football. But that they play so much of it that by the time they are 10 years old, they already have far better base skills then your typical 10 year old European. As you say, all thats left is to train them in tactics. But in the UK, our youngsters are seriously lacking in base skills. So they have to be taught technique as well as tactics.

I know the situation in Brazil is hard at the moment. It might sound silly of me saying "Brazil is so cool if you want to play football" when so many of these kids also have to deal with robbery, murder, drugs and other such wonderful street nuances. Im speaking strictly from a football perspective. Its a great place for playing football. Maybe not so much for anything else, right now!

I think we're on the same page here really.
Definitely on the same page, but I'll just add that there are several Brazils inside Brazil and there are great places here where you can live a peaceful life and do great things, normally toward countryside, away from the big centers. But I understand the mess itself attracts lots of people, including countless foreign tourists. Go figure. Whatever floats each one boats, hehe.
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Old 12-17-2013, 11:25 AM   #30 (permalink)
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In a recent interview Chael said: "No matter if he's on my side or Wanderlei's, I think Anderson definately needs to be there", because he knows how important figure Anderson is to Brazilian fighters. Dana also said recently, that "it's surprising, how many Brazilians want to be on Chael's team".
This is going to be good.
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This was on a q and a with chael,in London i believe. He suggested that anderson needed to be on the show whether it was in his corner or wands.
He said that Anderson's wealth of knowledge would be amazing for the Brazilian contestants to tap into.

Chael said he needs to be there to help train the guys.

Could not agree more.
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