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Old 06-19-2007, 05:41 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Fedor doesn't derserve anything but a title shot in the UFC.

If they put him in that cage and feed him bottom of the barrel heavyweights I will strike.

But this seems to be UFC policy for some VERY odd reason.

Oh and I like Lesner. I think he has potential, but size does not equal dominance in MMA. Skill, technique, and experience is everything in this sport.

Fedor vs. Lesner would end in TKO with Fedor raising his hand as the winner. You saw what he did to Zuluzinho? Matching him up against big guys just to see what happens is retarded and thats the type of mentality that ruined sports like Boxing.
i dunno if your talking to me here but if you are i was only mentioning lesner's name with fedor's because of the size and athleticism.
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Old 06-19-2007, 05:50 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I honestly think Angle has what it takes to be a great submission fighter... but that's about it..

His wrestling is good, and I think he'll catch onto BJJ pretty quickly.. but striking...? I can't picture that at all.

Although he is in horrible condition *(neck, etc.etc.), I think he can do good in the UFC, depending on how much heart he has.

btw, I don't think it's a good idea for Kurt.. If he took a slam like the Kevin Randleman slam.. I can't imagine him participating in any sport again..
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Old 06-20-2007, 02:13 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasvll
I'll never understand this bias. Age and injuries are problems for Angle, but conditioning, no way.
Yeah, it is. The fact is, Kurt was a world class athlete, but when you are in professional wrestling there is much less emphasis on actual physical performance and much more on appearance. The fact is, you have to work alot harder to maintain physical condition as you age. There have been alot of fighters that haven't managed to do that, versus the one (Couture) that has.

Frankly, I don't put Angle on the same level as Couture as an athlete. He's a more accomplished wrestler, but we all know that that has nothing to do with a career in MMA. Kerr was a better wrestler than Couture (he beat him in the national championship in college) but look at where Kerr is.

Frankly, I think that Angle is all talk. If he spent a year training in jiu-jitsu and submission defense, as well as getting his conditioning on track and developing an understanding of kickboxing, muay thai and how to adapt his shots to be effective against strikers he could, say, fight a Marvin Eastman.

I don't think Angle will ever do that, because he enjoys talking much more than the actual fight, and I don't respect that. I don't think that Angle has any idea what it's like to stand in the ring with Chuck Liddell, very few guys do, and I think that he's got even less of an idea what it means to get hit by a guy as strong as Chuck, Tito or Rampage.

His conditioning is an issue because he's too arrogant to understand that it needs work.

At least Lesnar knew he needed to work on all aspects of his game and his conditioning and he did that. He took advantage of his athleticism and his wrestling backround and he performed well.

Angle isn't going to do that, and he's not going to be successful in the sport, if he ever comes over.

I'd love to see Angle fight Chuck or Rampage, but it'd look like this:



or this:



or this:



But he's probably just while we

Frankly, it's like this:



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Old 06-20-2007, 03:23 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMan
Yeah, it is. The fact is, Kurt was a world class athlete, but when you are in professional wrestling there is much less emphasis on actual physical performance and much more on appearance.
This is absolute nonsense. Not only are does pro wrestling require incredible conditioning, you have no evidence that Angle's conditioning has decreased since becoming one.

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The fact is, you have to work alot harder to maintain physical condition as you age. There have been alot of fighters that haven't managed to do that, versus the one (Couture) that has.
Yes, that's where the 'age' part comes in. Deteriorated conditioning due to age was already agreed on. He can't train 10 years off.

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Frankly, I don't put Angle on the same level as Couture as an athlete. He's a more accomplished wrestler, but we all know that that has nothing to do with a career in MMA. Kerr was a better wrestler than Couture (he beat him in the national championship in college) but look at where Kerr is.
How does Kerr's condition prove anything about Angle's?

Quote:
Frankly, I think that Angle is all talk. If he spent a year training in jiu-jitsu and submission defense, as well as getting his conditioning on track and developing an understanding of kickboxing, muay thai and how to adapt his shots to be effective against strikers he could, say, fight a Marvin Eastman.
I'm not saying Angle will ever show up in MMA or that if he did he would do well.

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I don't think Angle will ever do that, because he enjoys talking much more than the actual fight, and I don't respect that. I don't think that Angle has any idea what it's like to stand in the ring with Chuck Liddell, very few guys do, and I think that he's got even less of an idea what it means to get hit by a guy as strong as Chuck, Tito or Rampage.
On the other hand, I don't think Liddell knows what it's like to break your neck in training days before the olympics and instead of stepping down, win an olympic gold medal. I'm not saying this will make him a great MMArtist, just that it suggests a punch in the face wouldn't be the worst thing he's dealt with.

Quote:
His conditioning is an issue because he's too arrogant to understand that it needs work.
But you've provided no evidence that his conditioning needs work. Only blind assumptions about pro wrestling. His stand-up and submission technique probably needs a lot of work, based on his inexperience in MMA, but his conditioning is top notch. All you'd have to do is watch one of his iron man matches to understand that.

Quote:
At least Lesnar knew he needed to work on all aspects of his game and his conditioning and he did that. He took advantage of his athleticism and his wrestling backround and he performed well.
The last thing Lesnar needed to work on was conditioning. Stand-up? Yes. Submissions? Yes. Wrestling? No. Conditioning? No way.
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Old 06-22-2007, 01:07 AM   #25 (permalink)
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These are good points, J.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasvll
This is absolute nonsense. Not only are does pro wrestling require incredible conditioning, you have no evidence that Angle's conditioning has decreased since becoming one.
While Pro wrestling does require a level of endurance and strength, it doesn't require the wrestlers to work against their opponents. There is a difference between trying to slam a guy who is letting you slam him and trying to slam a guy who is doing his damndest to keep you from doing anything, while simultaniously trying to pound your face in with his hands.

Pro wrestling requires a certain level of athleticism, and I apologize if I implied otherwise. It's simply not the same level. It's different in the same way that doing a kata is different from fighting. The ideas and fundamentals don't have the same application.

What I said about Angles conditioning isn't meant to say that he doesn't have any. He's probably still strong, but I'm fairly certain he doesn't have the same level of strength that he had when he won his gold medal and since his regular dose of training doesn't come from trying to toss 220 pound men around like rag-dolls, I don't think he has pushed himself as hard as Rampage, Liddell, Shogun, or even a middle-ground fighter.

While I'm just speculating, it's based simply on what Angle needs to do in order to make his upkeep as a Pro wrestler. I don't think he has the conditioning because he doesn't need it.

I may be wrong, and you are right to say that it is purely speculative. Feel free to disagree with me. After all, it's just my opinion.


Quote:
Yes, that's where the 'age' part comes in. Deteriorated conditioning due to age was already agreed on. He can't train 10 years off.
At the point he's probably gotten to, I certainly think you're right, but if his conditioning is at the level that it was when he won gold, he won't have to. Like I said, I am simply making note that I don't hink he has maintained that level of conditioning and so I think it's a problem.

We seem to agree that if his condition has deteriorated, as I said I think it has, it's a big problem.


Quote:
How does Kerr's condition prove anything about Angle's?
I was making the point that there are wrestlers who have that same level of conditioning (while I think Kerr's it probably considerably better) who have tried to get by on their wrestling and not done so well in the modern sport.

It's just an analogy, but I think the credentials are pretty similar and I think that the situation and the outcome would be, too. Again, that's just my opinion.


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I'm not saying Angle will ever show up in MMA or that if he did he would do well.
No one is saying that you did. We're all just guessing.

Quote:
On the other hand, I don't think Liddell knows what it's like to break your neck in training days before the olympics and instead of stepping down, win an olympic gold medal. I'm not saying this will make him a great MMArtist, just that it suggests a punch in the face wouldn't be the worst thing he's dealt with.
Maybe, and if this was a wrestling match I would give a resiliance advantage to Kurt. If this was a wrestling match I would give the whole damn thing to Kurt, but that's not what we're talking about.

What are the chances that Chuck is going to have deal with a broken neck before competing? Pretty much none.

What are the chances Kurt will have to deal with a punch in the face if this ever happens? Pretty high.

I think, as a fighter, that comparing training injuries to getting punches in the face is like comparing apples and oranges. It's two different kinds of resiliance. I know that your implying Angle can handle pain, but getting put to sleep with an overhand right isn't an issue of pain, it's about how much shaking it takes before your brain shuts down. That's what Kurt has to worry about.


Quote:
But you've provided no evidence that his conditioning needs work. Only blind assumptions about pro wrestling. His stand-up and submission technique probably needs a lot of work, based on his inexperience in MMA, but his conditioning is top notch. All you'd have to do is watch one of his iron man matches to understand that.
I have no hard data to prove that his condition is bad, but you have no basis to say that his conditioning is top notch. If you are going to accuse me of not having facts, it's always nice to have some of your own.

What I mean is that I do not believe that Pro wrestling has any elements that showcase athleticism on the level that Angle has to be at to compete against a guy like Chuck. We can't know that, but I would like to hear your argument as to why Angle's conditioning is still good. I presented mine: see the part right after your first part.

I'd be interested to hear your logic.


Quote:
The last thing Lesnar needed to work on was conditioning. Stand-up? Yes. Submissions? Yes. Wrestling? No. Conditioning? No way.
This, however, is just not true. Lesnar worked on his technique in all areas. It's not like he stopped working on his wrestling. He made sure that his bread and butter was nice and ready, because he intended to use that. He simply worked to bring the other elements of his game up to par.

He also did work on his conditioning. My understanding is that he didn't work as hard on his cardio as I believe he should have (clearly he didn't need to), but I know that he did a good deal of weight training. It may not have been anything more than what he did as a pro football player, but I would guess that he worked his ass off in the gym and to say that he didn't work on his conditioning would be a disrespect to him as well as the guys who coached him.

I think that Lesnar entering MMA gave him the opportunity to showcase his natural athleticism, but I can garuntee that, like all fighters, he built on that alot in the gym. After the display of strength that we saw against Choi, it's fairly obvious that his strength conditioning was top notch, and that his wrestling had slipped at all. In that fight I didn't even see any evidence to suggest that he worked on anything else. I know he did, but it's clear that he also continued to build on his wrestling.

When you come into MMA from another sport, like Kickboxing or wrestling, you don't stop training in your bread and butter. CroCop didn't stop training in kickboxing because he came to MMA, he just added grappling to his game. The same is true for Fedor coming over from Sambo, Couture (and all of the other wrestlers) coming over from wrestling and Yoshida coming over from Judo. They don't just stop working and coast on their ability, they simply work on applying it to MMA and developing the skills they need to survive the other elements of the sport.

If you think that fighters don't train in what their good at just because they're good at it, well, you're .
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Old 06-22-2007, 10:10 AM   #26 (permalink)
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I'll preface this by saying I understand where you're coming from; I just happen to disagree, and there's nothing wrong with that for either of us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMan
While Pro wrestling does require a level of endurance and strength, it doesn't require the wrestlers to work against their opponents. There is a difference between trying to slam a guy who is letting you slam him and trying to slam a guy who is doing his damndest to keep you from doing anything, while simultaniously trying to pound your face in with his hands.
Yes, but MMArtists go for 5 minutes at a time with breaks in between. Pro Wrestlers perform dozens of throws over the course of 20 minutes to an hour, depending on the format, with no breaks (rest moves aside). I'm not arguing that pro wrestlers are superiorly conditioned, but their job requires their conditioning to be on a comparable level.

Quote:
Pro wrestling requires a certain level of athleticism, and I apologize if I implied otherwise. It's simply not the same level. It's different in the same way that doing a kata is different from fighting. The ideas and fundamentals don't have the same application.
I agree that they're different, but not in the same way a 30 second form that has no resistance beyond gravity is different.

Quote:
What I said about Angles conditioning isn't meant to say that he doesn't have any. He's probably still strong, but I'm fairly certain he doesn't have the same level of strength that he had when he won his gold medal and since his regular dose of training doesn't come from trying to toss 220 pound men around like rag-dolls, I don't think he has pushed himself as hard as Rampage, Liddell, Shogun, or even a middle-ground fighter.
Have you ever watched one of his pro-wrestling matches? Because it really sounds like you haven't seen how he wrestles. His style is very similar to amateur wrestling and extremely fast-paced.

Quote:
While I'm just speculating, it's based simply on what Angle needs to do in order to make his upkeep as a Pro wrestler. I don't think he has the conditioning because he doesn't need it.
I know, but as I said earlier, this is based on your own opinion about the conditioning required to be a pro wrestler. And I don't feel the basis for that opinion is particularly solid, as I said in the beginning.

Quote:
I may be wrong, and you are right to say that it is purely speculative. Feel free to disagree with me. After all, it's just my opinion.
I'm fine with differences of opinion. It's just not always clear if someone thinks they're presenting opinion or fact.

Quote:
At the point he's probably gotten to, I certainly think you're right, but if his conditioning is at the level that it was when he won gold, he won't have to. Like I said, I am simply making note that I don't hink he has maintained that level of conditioning and so I think it's a problem.

We seem to agree that if his condition has deteriorated, as I said I think it has, it's a big problem.
Yes, conditioning is key in both arenas.



Quote:
I was making the point that there are wrestlers who have that same level of conditioning (while I think Kerr's it probably considerably better) who have tried to get by on their wrestling and not done so well in the modern sport.

It's just an analogy, but I think the credentials are pretty similar and I think that the situation and the outcome would be, too. Again, that's just my opinion.
But that deals with his MMA technical abilities, not his conditioning. I'm not arguing that Angle's wrestling would be enough to land him a victory.

Kerr's conditioning was always suspect because he was carrying an extra 40-50 lbs. of muscle and gassed easily. The documentary revealed why that was. There's no way Kerr could have performed a 20 minute pro wrestling match, either, so again, I don't see that applying to Angle. Kerr's case is very specific.

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No one is saying that you did. We're all just guessing.
I know. I was just clarifying my stance.

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Maybe, and if this was a wrestling match I would give a resiliance advantage to Kurt. If this was a wrestling match I would give the whole damn thing to Kurt, but that's not what we're talking about.

What are the chances that Chuck is going to have deal with a broken neck before competing? Pretty much none.

What are the chances Kurt will have to deal with a punch in the face if this ever happens? Pretty high.
That wasn't my point. I was simply pointing out Angle's determination and mental strength. In other words, he's not going to break down after a punch or to like Dave Terrell against Evan Tanner.

Quote:
I think, as a fighter, that comparing training injuries to getting punches in the face is like comparing apples and oranges. It's two different kinds of resiliance. I know that your implying Angle can handle pain, but getting put to sleep with an overhand right isn't an issue of pain, it's about how much shaking it takes before your brain shuts down. That's what Kurt has to worry about.
Obviously, but I don't imagine Angle would try to stand up with him, which is where all the grapplers got knocked out.


Quote:
I have no hard data to prove that his condition is bad, but you have no basis to say that his conditioning is top notch. If you are going to accuse me of not having facts, it's always nice to have some of your own.
As I said before, my statements are based on seeing him perform in the pro wrestling ring.

Quote:
What I mean is that I do not believe that Pro wrestling has any elements that showcase athleticism on the level that Angle has to be at to compete against a guy like Chuck. We can't know that, but I would like to hear your argument as to why Angle's conditioning is still good. I presented mine: see the part right after your first part.

I'd be interested to hear your logic.
I've seen Angle peform in iron man matches, which are a full hour with no breaks. The things he does in the ring require a level of conditioning that few pro wrestlers can even keep up with. Shawn Michaels, Eddie Guerrero, and Chris Benoit are a few that could, though.

Quote:
This, however, is just not true. Lesnar worked on his technique in all areas. It's not like he stopped working on his wrestling. He made sure that his bread and butter was nice and ready, because he intended to use that. He simply worked to bring the other elements of his game up to par.

He also did work on his conditioning. My understanding is that he didn't work as hard on his cardio as I believe he should have (clearly he didn't need to), but I know that he did a good deal of weight training. It may not have been anything more than what he did as a pro football player, but I would guess that he worked his ass off in the gym and to say that he didn't work on his conditioning would be a disrespect to him as well as the guys who coached him.

I think that Lesnar entering MMA gave him the opportunity to showcase his natural athleticism, but I can garuntee that, like all fighters, he built on that alot in the gym. After the display of strength that we saw against Choi, it's fairly obvious that his strength conditioning was top notch, and that his wrestling had slipped at all. In that fight I didn't even see any evidence to suggest that he worked on anything else. I know he did, but it's clear that he also continued to build on his wrestling.
You've misunderstood me. I never meant to suggest that Lesnar didn't maintain or improve his conditioning and wrestling. I said he didn't need to. Both were already well beyond the average MMA fighter. I mean, the guy literally walked on to an NFL practice squad and excelled. His only limitation was knowledge of the game. Lesnar is a highly conditioned athlete.

Quote:
When you come into MMA from another sport, like Kickboxing or wrestling, you don't stop training in your bread and butter. CroCop didn't stop training in kickboxing because he came to MMA, he just added grappling to his game. The same is true for Fedor coming over from Sambo, Couture (and all of the other wrestlers) coming over from wrestling and Yoshida coming over from Judo. They don't just stop working and coast on their ability, they simply work on applying it to MMA and developing the skills they need to survive the other elements of the sport.

If you think that fighters don't train in what their good at just because they're good at it, well, you're .
Again, I never meant to suggest that.

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Old 06-22-2007, 01:00 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Again, good stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasvll
I'll preface this by saying I understand where you're coming from; I just happen to disagree, and there's nothing wrong with that for either of us.

(rest moves aside)
This is what I mean. I know I'm doctoring your post, but it sort of makes my point for me. As fast paced at it might be, if a wrestler is supposed to win he will win and there will be no resistance for that. It he needs to rest, he will have the opportunity to rest.

I'm not saying that it doesn't require any strength, just that it's no where near the same level and having the opportunity to rest without concern over being submitted isn't something that exists.

In MMA you have to have that constant consciousness and an awareness of all of the stuff that is going on, not just the move that you are doing, the same way as in wrestling. In MMA, it's a whole different deal and, in my opinion, you need to have another level of athleticism to attain that.


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I agree that they're different, but not in the same way a 30 second form that has no resistance beyond gravity is different.
Yes, it's a little bit of an exaggerated analogy. I think the point gets across though.

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Have you ever watched one of his pro-wrestling matches? Because it really sounds like you haven't seen how he wrestles. His style is very similar to amateur wrestling and extremely fast-paced.
I have. My little brother and his friends watch TNA. While he does have explosiveness, like every pro wrestlers, it's not like he doesn't take breaks.

The level of his explosiveness and his speed is exaggerated by opponents who give him the opportunity to do his move. They aren't going out of their way to stuff his takedowns.

While he may still appear to have explosiveness, it's not the same as forcing your body into a guy who's trying not to go to the ground. It's a totally different deal.


Quote:
I know, but as I said earlier, this is based on your own opinion about the conditioning required to be a pro wrestler. And I don't feel the basis for that opinion is particularly solid, as I said in the beginning.

I'm fine with differences of opinion. It's just not always clear if someone thinks they're presenting opinion or fact.
Fair enough, but I'd like to hear some contrary logic. I'm still waiting on that.

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Yes, conditioning is key in both arenas.
I think we both agree on that.

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But that deals with his MMA technical abilities, not his conditioning. I'm not arguing that Angle's wrestling would be enough to land him a victory.
Nothing he does deals with his MMA technical abilities. He's a wrestler. He wrestles. I'm lost.

I think that his wrestling would be able to win him some fights. I don't think that any of those fights would be over Chuck Liddell or Rampage.


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Kerr's conditioning was always suspect because he was carrying an extra 40-50 lbs. of muscle and gassed easily. The documentary revealed why that was. There's no way Kerr could have performed a 20 minute pro wrestling match, either, so again, I don't see that applying to Angle. Kerr's case is very specific.
I doubt Kerr couldn't have been a pro wrestler. His cardio may have been suspect, but his muscles did have the ability to explode again and again and again at a much higher level than anyone else in the sport at the time and, as I said, when you have the opportunity to rest or catch your breath, cardio plays much less of a factor.

I think that Kerr probably had bigger issues with the pace being pushed for a ten minute round than a twenty minute round. While his cardio may have been suspect, I think that had he been given the opportunity to catch his breath once and a while he would have been very successful.

The comparison to Angle was simply a look at the strict wrestling backrounds that they both have.


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That wasn't my point. I was simply pointing out Angle's determination and mental strength. In other words, he's not going to break down after a punch or to like Dave Terrell against Evan Tanner.
Terrell tried pretty hard to get out of that position before caving in. I think that you are underestimating Evan Tanner's elbows by saying that, but, like I said, an injury in training is different from getting punched in the face in a fight.

It is a different issue of fighting through the burn or ache of a training injury, when you make a conscious decision to continue, as opposed to an overhand right in a fight, where you are either lucky enough to stay awake or not.

I understand what you are saying about the mental determination, but it doesn't apply when you are unconscious. Determination doesn't overcome punches, chin does. Some people have chin and some people don't, it doesn't make the fighter any less determined.


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Obviously, but I don't imagine Angle would try to stand up with him, which is where all the grapplers got knocked out.
As Randy has said, the distance changes when you are translating the style to MMA, because you have to be out of range of that punch. In wrestling you don't have to worry about getting slugged, so you can stay an arms length away while you go for that good Roman-Greco clinch or that shot.

It's a different game when you are concerned about getting hit, and sometimes that change in distace is a big issue and you can't cover it as quickly as you'd like to, this was Randleman's big issue when he fought both Couture and Liddell, it's because he was used to covering a certain amount of distance and when the distance he was from his opponent increased, he couldn't cover it as quickly as he was used to.


Quote:
I've seen Angle peform in iron man matches, which are a full hour with no breaks. The things he does in the ring require a level of conditioning that few pro wrestlers can even keep up with. Shawn Michaels, Eddie Guerrero, and Chris Benoit are a few that could, though.
Not to take anything away from the guys as athletes, but they don't have to worry about a yellow card for delaying the action, they can dance and set things up slower and they have the full co-operation of their opponent.

If Kurt had to constantly force his opponents to the ground it would be an entirely different deal. I doubt he could go 15 minutes. That's what I base my assumptions and ideas on.


Quote:
You've misunderstood me. I never meant to suggest that Lesnar didn't maintain or improve his conditioning and wrestling. I said he didn't need to. Both were already well beyond the average MMA fighter. I mean, the guy literally walked on to an NFL practice squad and excelled. His only limitation was knowledge of the game. Lesnar is a highly conditioned athlete.
He may not have needed to against Hong Man Choi, but I can tell you that I have training partners that visited the Royce Gracie camp while he was training there. He wasn't training for Hong Man Choi.

Brock Lesnar is like a bus, he just thinks of the opponents he has right now as stops. He's training his ass off and working on his conditioning because he wants to be at the level of top K-1 fighters like Semmy Schilt. He wants those fights and so he does need to continue to improve on his athleticism.

Brock Lesnar wants to be a world champion, and so he sees the need to improve his conditioning and get bigger and faster and stronger, because that is what he needs to be a world champion, along with the skills.

Kurt Angle also wants to be a world champion in wrestling, but he doesn't need to maintain athleticism to do that, he needs to build on his already impressive charisma.

Lesnar needs to be stronger, Angle does not. Lesnar, from what I have heard, is a humble enough guy to be aware that he needs to be better to be world class. Angle seems arrogant enough to not realize that is the case.

I think Angle thinks his conditioning is better than it is, and I think Lesnar doesn't realize, entirely, how incredible he is as an athlete (and he is a complete freak of nature when it comes to his athleticism). I also think that Lesnar wants to be a better athlete and a better fighter, while Angle wants the money and the grandeur that goes along with the belt.

That motivation alone pushes Lesnar to think one step at a time, one training session at a time, and causes Angle to get aheard of himself and, if he trains the way he talks, undertrain.

But, again, these are just my assumptions.
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Old 06-22-2007, 01:25 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Very well thought out and presented. (Sentence fragments can be useful. )

Our only real difference of opinion is the conditioning of pro wrestlers. Since neither of us are going to budge on that one, I think we have to agree to disagree.

For the record, I think Kurt Angle wouldn't get far in MMA unless he took Lesnar's approach, which is to become a true MMArtist.
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Old 06-22-2007, 06:13 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jasvll
Very well thought out and presented. (Sentence fragments can be useful. )

Our only real difference of opinion is the conditioning of pro wrestlers. Since neither of us are going to budge on that one, I think we have to agree to disagree.

For the record, I think Kurt Angle wouldn't get far in MMA unless he took Lesnar's approach, which is to become a true MMArtist.
I agree with you there. Great stuff.
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Old 06-22-2007, 06:25 PM   #30 (permalink)
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id like to see lesnar break angle's neck. angle is waaaaay too cocky for a cat of his age w/ absolutely NO mma experience.
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