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Old 11-12-2007, 10:41 PM   #21 (permalink)
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WOw poeople still holding on to hope. Just accept that rich is not as good as silva. Its not that rich doesn't match up good with him, i hate when people say that. Just say the skills rich posses are not as good as the skills silva has. I don't understand why it is so hard for people to keep thinking in the back of their mind that if rich keeps trying to beat silva, maybe just this one time he will....

So if rich trains with a better camp, that means he is going to get better while silva just sits in his camp not getting better? Silva is getting better everyday too, so as rich gets better so does silva. Rich will always be behind silva, just accept that a better fighter came in and holds the belt now.
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Old 11-12-2007, 11:48 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Flak
He's not B level, that's absurd. He just hasn't learned to deal with Muay Thai yet.

Is Rampage B level? He has a similar weakness.
Actually seeing as how he fought a dumb ass chuck and a gassing hendo I cannot yet say if he is or isn't. He is a lot like Franklin in that he didn't get better till he switched up camps now as to weather he is b level or not I think it takes more than Eastman, a dumb Chuck, and gassing hendo to prove if he is or not. Let me see him fight Wandy, Shogun, and maybe Forrest and I'll get back to you.

As for Franklin really before Anderson who did he fight to say he isn't B level? Oh yeah, nobody. I need to see the Okami fight but it sounded like he wasn't exactly mopping the floor with Okami so I say he is B level till he beats guys like Lindland, Kang, Filho, Hendo, and of course everybody's favorite flavor of the year A. Silva.
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Old 11-13-2007, 01:42 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Believe it or not, for Franklins skill set and what he knew pre-UFC 77, he actually took the best game plan for his second fight with Silva and the exact one I thought he should/would. While he got tooled at UFC 64, he was actually going very well in the stand-up up until the clinch. And at UFC 77 we all saw that he can trade with Silva... For about 4 minutes. Unfortunately for Franklin and his camp, the first fight didn't even go 4 minutes so they probably thought that he could possibly last long enough with Silva standing until Silva gassed which wasn't the case.

See, what many people consider to be his strength is actually more-so his weakness. Yes he is good in all aspects of the game, but that is the problem, he is JUST GOOD. Standing he is good, BJJ is good and his wrestling is good. None are really great in my sentiment, and going against Silva that is the worst skill-set you could have since Silva is GREAT standing and very good on the ground so there is no place that Franklin truely has the advantage.

So, the solution? Franklin needs to take some time off from the UFC to REALLY hone his skills. Intensely train Kickboxing/BJJ until his game improves enough to be considered a GREAT striker and/or BJJ fighter. Only then would he be able to really stand a chance vs. Silva.

That is also why I think Matt Hughes stands a better chance against Silva because while his standup is terrible, he has a ground game that is next to none, so he has a place where he has an advantage in the fight and if he could get the fight there, he could win for sure.
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Old 11-13-2007, 02:00 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by IcemanCometh
Rewatch the fight between rd1 and 2 hume was telling Rich to turn into Silva when he get the plumb on him and what did rich do? He turned away from Anderson the totally wrong thing. I think Rich is a B level fighter and when dealing with A level guys like A. Silva he will get murdered. Put him in with someone like Filho and his ground game will come up short. With Silva its his striking that looked like crap.

Actually an escape from the thai plumb is to keep your head up and throw your shoulder up and across your body to release the other guy's grip. That's what Rich was trying to do (and why Anderson lost the grip for a second). The problem with turning into Silva is that the more upright you stand the easier it is for him to pull your head down to his knees. Rich wasn't doing anything wrong by ignoring the advice. Being the #2 Middleweight is NOT B level. Nothing about Silva's striking looks like crap.
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Originally Posted by yort
So if rich trains with a better camp, that means he is going to get better while silva just sits in his camp not getting better? Silva is getting better everyday too, so as rich gets better so does silva. Rich will always be behind silva, just accept that a better fighter came in and holds the belt now.

No if he trains with a better camp, he gets different perspectives and different training that could give him an edge. GSP changes camps pretty often, just to see as much various training methods and fighting techniques as possible so nothing surprises him and he has multiple options to deal with different situations. The same thing would help Rich (and Anderson for that matter). Anderson's going to keep doing the same thing until he loses ... where rich has the opportunity to add more weapons to his arsenal.
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Originally Posted by IcemanCometh
As for Franklin really before Anderson who did he fight to say he isn't B level? Oh yeah, nobody. I need to see the Okami fight but it sounded like he wasn't exactly mopping the floor with Okami so I say he is B level till he beats guys like Lindland, Kang, Filho, Hendo, and of course everybody's favorite flavor of the year A. Silva.
So many things wrong with this I don't know where to start. He dominated Okami for all of the fight except for the 20 seconds he was defending a submission and quickly reversed. He beat David Loiseau, Evan Tanner (twice), Ken Shamrock, and Jorge Riveira. All top knotch fighters. As for beating "guys like Lindland, Kang, Filho, Hendo and everybody's favorite flavor of the year A. Silva" Lindland isn't anywhere near the top of the food chain... he hasn't won a fight against a top tier guy since Rampage (Horn is a gatekeeper at best and Newton used to be good). Hendo said he isn't dropping to middlewieght. Filho hasn't even been tested by a striker yet so he doesn't even count (no Ninja does not count as a top level striker at middleweight). The same thing holds true for Kang... he hasn't beaten any of the upper echelon of the middleweight division (the closest kang has come was facing jason miller). That has to be the worst list of "top middleweight fighters" I've ever seen. Finally if "beating Anderson Silva" is what's required to make it out of your "B Level" category... then the entire middleweight division (other than the champ) is a B level fighter?!
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Old 11-13-2007, 02:18 AM   #25 (permalink)

 
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Every fighter that has been with any camp for a substantial period of time can benefit from switching camps, that is just a fact and it doesnt have to be applied to any fighter specifically at any time, Diffrent camps have diffrent tricks and at some point every fighter reachs the point were they are training and improving but they are just improving in at the same old things and are no longer learning new techniques. How many threads are similiar to this were "fighter X NEEDS A NEW CAMP!!".
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Old 11-13-2007, 02:29 AM   #26 (permalink)
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he absolutely needs to switch camps. he needs to go to several & soak up ALL that they have to offer. hopefully he'll grasp the serious need for muay thai & focus on that.
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Old 11-13-2007, 03:22 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Can a new camp help Franklin become a better fighter? Absolutely.

Will it help him beat Silva? I don't think so.

I dont think its so much a 'B' fighter in Franklin against an 'A' fighter in Silva. I think its more like an 'A' fighter fighting an 'A+' fighter
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Old 11-13-2007, 07:23 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Actually an escape from the thai plumb is to keep your head up and throw your shoulder up and across your body to release the other guy's grip. That's what Rich was trying to do (and why Anderson lost the grip for a second). The problem with turning into Silva is that the more upright you stand the easier it is for him to pull your head down to his knees. Rich wasn't doing anything wrong by ignoring the advice.
Thanks, I didn't know that. Next time I am in a fight and someone tries that I will remember what to do.
Quote:
Being the #2 Middleweight is NOT B level.
Your right its just your opinion, and like you with my opinion I disagree with yours.

Quote:
Nothing about Silva's striking looks like crap.
Re-read the sentence, I said with Silva its Rich's striking that looked like crap and with Filho his ground game would be shown up.


Quote:
So many things wrong with this I don't know where to start. He dominated Okami for all of the fight except for the 20 seconds he was defending a submission and quickly I reversed.
I probably shoudn't have commented on the fight as I said I haven't seen it, but IMO to be top level you have to do more than get a UD with top guys.

Quote:
He beat David Loiseau, Evan Tanner (twice), Ken Shamrock, and Jorge Riveira. All top knotch fighters.
As for beating "guys like Lindland, Kang, Filho, Hendo and everybody's favorite flavor of the year A. Silva" Lindland isn't anywhere near the top of the food chain... he hasn't won a fight against a top tier guy since Rampage (Horn is a gatekeeper at best and Newton used to be good). Hendo said he isn't dropping to middlewieght. Filho hasn't even been tested by a striker yet so he doesn't even count (no Ninja does not count as a top level striker at middleweight). The same thing holds true for Kang... he hasn't beaten any of the upper echelon of the middleweight division (the closest kang has come was facing jason miller). That has to be the worst list of "top middleweight fighters" I've ever seen. Finally if "beating Anderson Silva" is what's required to make it out of your "B Level" category... then the entire middleweight division (other than the champ) is a B level fighter?!
Wow, it would seem to me your the delusional one not me, the three guys you listed have done what exactly to be considered top guys, since when did Evan Tanner become a top guy, or Riveria, or The Crow? As for Kang, puh-lease I think fighting guys like:
  • Yoshihiro Akiyama
  • Junggyu Choi
  • Kazuo Misaki
  • Akihiro Gono
  • Amar Suloev
  • Murilo Rua
  • Albert Basconcelles
  • Mark Weir
doesn't compare to guys like:
  • Anderson Silva
  • Yushin Okami
  • Jason MacDonald
  • Anderson Silva
  • David Loiseau

And your right who has Lindland fought and tooled, oh yeah the LHW champ, and a host of other better fighters, Horn is what? Not to mention Lindland stepped up two weight classes and fought Fedor a fight many thing the Russian had to cheat to win. The jury is still out on Hendo and I guess if he never fights Ace then that is just too bad for Rich. Filho's striking isn't in question the fact he would tool Rich on the ground isn't either.
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Old 11-13-2007, 12:06 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I'll give you that Filho wins on the ground... hands down. Stand up, he hasn't really had to battle an elite striker with a long reach and quick jab (aka rich) that's why I still say it's in question.

If to be in the top-level you have to do better than get Unanimous Decisions... what about Sean Sherk? He wins by decision in 1/3rd the time he fights. Lindland wins by decision a 25% of the time too. Everyone has decision victories.

Horn hasn't beaten a top level fighter since Anderson Silva in 2004 and his stand up isn't strong enough for the octagon. Reason being, when he beat Anderson it was in the smaller 10 ft diameter cage(KOTC, WEC, and GC) and the octagon is a 20 ft diameter cage. In the smaller events a ground fighter will always have the advantage because the ring size limits a striker's mobility. Now this isn't to say that Anderson has astound takedown defense, because Lutter's shots on him were telegraphed and he still got Silva to the floor. However, Anderson's recent win streak has to lead me to believe Gumby wouldn't stand a chance (with his losing streak).

At the time Rich beat them, they were all top contenders. Getting KO'd by Akiyama shouldn't count towards Kang's credentials. Junggyo Choi is a nobody. Misaki = another loss that shouldn't count for Kang. Mark Weir is the only recognizable name on Kang's list and he hasn't beaten anybody worth mentioning. I'm not saying Kang doesn't have skills, just that he hasn't been pitted against any established fighters (in general) and has yet to prove himself since he broke his hand. Same is true for Filho... they both look impressive against mediocre opponents, but have yet to face anyone that presents a real threat. I think they're records seem stacked because of who they are fighting (not the fighter's fault... they have to pay the bills).
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Old 11-13-2007, 12:55 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by UseOf_A_Weapon
rampage "HAD" a similar weakness. seems Ibarra helped him conquer a lot of things. Lord knows his wrestling improved leaps and bounds. His boxing is also a lot cleaner and definitely more accurate.
Fact is, the last time Page fought a good Muay Thai guy he got his arse beat. Until he fights another one and shows improvement, im going to stick with what we've seen as opposed to assuming he's fixed that. You have no evidence of this improved defense. Circumstantial at best.

As far as Rich and Rampage being B level Iceman, that's so ridiculous that im not going to even bother addressing it any further.
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