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Mazzagatti SPEAKS about Lesnar/Mir (Good Read)

3K views 68 replies 24 participants last post by  Breadfan 
#1 ·
Source: http://mmajunkie.com/2008/02/05/ref...s-lesnar-mir-fight-an-mmajunkiecom-interview/

Will people please stop complaining now? It's just getting plain annoying.

mmajunkie.com said:
MMAJUNKIE.COM: Before we jump into UFC 81, can you explain your background in the sport and how you became a referee for the Nevada State Athletic Commission?
STEVE MAZZAGATTI: I’ve actually been into the sport since it was regulated by the state athletic commissions. I’ve been with the Nevada State Athletic Commission for 14 years first doing kickboxing and K-1 competitions and Muay Thai. I’ve always been an MMA fan, and when they came stateside, they told me to talk to Big John (McCarthy). He mentored me. Back then, he was the only teacher around… Like any martial artist, I’ve been watching the UFC since the first inception. I was totally amazed. As the skill level has improved, it’s even more exciting. And today, it’s more exciting than it’s ever been. I’m really into the technical aspect of the sport and the science of it.
MMAJUNKIE.COM: You’re now a veteran official, especially with the UFC. With a fight like Lesnar vs. Mir, can you tell me how and when you end up learning that you’re reffing the fight?
STEVE MAZZAGATTI: We don’t usually find out until we actually show up at the event. Every once in a while, I’ll catch which fights I’m doing on the Internet because you guys go to the commission meetings, but usually, I don’t find out until I get to the show.
MMAJUNKIE.COM: So you’re aware of sites like MMAjunkie.com?
STEVE MAZZAGATTI. Absolutely. I read it often. It’s our job to do homework, and it’s how I get the latest news and know what’s going on.
MMAJUNKIE.COM: What were your initial thoughts when you realized you got the Lesnar-Mir fight? Do the big-magnitude fights bring a little extra pressure?
STEVE MAZZAGATTI: Absolutely. When Big John left, he had been doing all the big fights, and I usually got a co-main event and the undercard fights. We’d divvy them up. When you’re reffing those big fights, the ones that headline the events that people came to see, (the fans) are going to watch every little thing and analyze everything, just like the SuperBowl. A high-profile fight is going to have a lot more scrutiny and be more analyzed. That’s for sure.
MMAJUNKIE.COM: Going into the fight, were there any special considerations you had or anything you knew you were going to have pay special attention to? In other words, were there things about each fighter that might make a referee’s job difficult?
STEVE MAZZAGATTI: Not really. I don’t really analyze the fighters. I have a job. I look for fouls. That’s pretty much it. That’s my primary duty, whether it’s a huge bout or a weekend-warrior card. The only thing that might change is the level of fighters and how much punishment they can take. The guys who are early in their careers and weekend warriors aren’t training as professionals and aren’t used to taking the punishment and the punches to the face. You have A class, and B class, and C class. The UFC is A class. The C-class guys might work eight hours a day, do a little training, and then take a fight. They’re not used to it all, so you have to be aware of that, and I’m not going to let them take the punishment an A-class guy might. Otherwise, I look at all fighters equally. I don’t look at strikers or grapplers or anyone differently.
MMAJUNKIE.COM: So, you’re willing to give established guys — someone like Mir or even Lesnar — more leeway?
STEVE MAZZAGATTI: I wouldn’t say leeway. I would just say punishment. You just can’t let the lower guys get beat up like you would an A-class guy. Look, these guys do this to make a living. My decisions affect their ability to make an income and get sponsorships and everything. I have as much responsibility in a fight as the fighters toward them winning.
MMAJUNKIE.COM: OK, onto the fight. When we spoke earlier, you mentioned that the decision to deduct Lesnar one point for strikes to the back of Mir’s head was pretty clear. Can you explain?
STEVE MAZZAGATTI: These fighters are extremely skilled fighters, and a grappler like Frank, that’s what they’re trained to do: when you have a guy in half guard on top of you, you don’t want to give the guy room to punch. So that was Mir’s defense. You suck up close to (your opponent’s) chest, tuck yourself up under them, and that covers you from getting hit. At first, Brock started to do the right thing by winding up with the hook from behind and pushing Mir’s head away from his stomach. Then you can blast him in the face… but to have to worry about getting struck in the back in the head in a situation like that isn’t something Frank should have had to worry about. But that was a target that presented itself to Brock.
MMAJUNKIE.COM: Just to be clear, did you think the strikes were intentional?
STEVE MAZZAGATTI: I don’t think it was through any fault of his own. It was just there for him, so he started coming down with that hammerfist. But the back of the head is not a target you can take. And honestly, we see it all the time. A lot of people are comparing it to that the Tibau Gleison-Tyson Griffin fight earlier in the night. They were doing the exact same thing. Gleison took down Tyson, Tyson scooted up toward Gleison, and he had the opportunity to hit him (in the back of the head) but didn’t take it. Instead, he moved his head out so he could get in some punches, which is what you’re supposed to do.
MMAJUNKIE.COM: Did you issue Lesnar a warning? That’s a big part of this whole thing, you know? Some fans think you didn’t issue a warning.
STEVE MAZZAGATTI: Yeah, I did. Brock’s excited. It’s a big, big opportunity for him, and — in my opinion — he looked down and saw the head there, and he took three shots at him and caught him. I jump in and say, “Don’t hit at the back of the head.” A few more seconds go by, Mir tucks up under there again, and Brock comes down with the second couple hits to the back of the head. That’s when I jumped in and had to do my job. That’s what I saw.
MMAJUNKIE.COM: So, just to be perfectly clear, you did issue Lesner a warning before you stopped the fight and deducted a point?
STEVE MAZZAGATTI: Oh yeah, I did. But can you imagine the decibels in there? That was one of the fights everyone came to see. Of course, I came home and did my homework, watched the tape, and I can’t hear myself give the warning. I couldn’t hear myself say, “Bring it on!” on that beginning (either). [laughs] That’s my thing. I always shout that. If you watch the tape, you can barely even hear that.
MMAJUNKIE.COM: Do you think Lesnar heard you?
STEVE MAZZAGATTI: I don’t know. I can’t say that he heard it. I yelled it loud enough for them to hear. It was awfully loud. I yelled it, though. I’ve got kids, so I know how to yell. [laughs] I used to be in a rock band, so I’ve got some lungs.
MMAJUNKIE.COM: I think that’s where the controversy is — if there is, indeed, any controversy — that some people think you never issued a warning. But you’re saying it’s just a matter of people not hearing it, correct?
STEVE MAZZAGATTI: Absolutely, yeah. Let me also say that striking to the back of the head is one of my pet peeves — that and grabbing the cage. The back of the head is a very dangerous spot of the body in this sport. If you were to put a RAZR cellphone right above your C-spine where it connects to your skull, that’s the most dangerous part of the skull. A good, strong hit there can really hurt a fighter. That’s the part of the head that is considered illegal. Right behind the ears is not illegal. Sometimes we caution people not to hit there. That’s not necessarily a warning… we just know the possibility is there. Like I said, I’m just there to look for illegal techniques. And if you go back through my history, you’ll see that I’ve deducted a lot of points for strikes to the back of the head.
MMAJUNKIE.COM: Obviously, it can be easy to accidentally hit someone in the back of the head unintentionally if an opponent if flailing around. Where do you draw the line?
STEVE MAZZAGATTI: Accidental strikes happen. But when you look at the back of the guy’s head and connect, it’s, “OK, that might be cool. He didn’t mean it.” Then you hit twice, and it’s time to start considering if you’re doing it intentionally. Then the third one comes down, and that’s when I jump in and say, “No strikes to the back of the head!” as loudly as I possibly can. Brock knows what he did. He has nothing to say about it being controversial. I don’t think his corner protested at all about it. It’s all left to interpretation. But was a foul committed? Yes, it was… If you look at the fight several times, unfortunately, the majority of the powerful shots were to the back of the head.
MMAJUNKIE.COM: Previously, you told me that Mir did what he was supposed to do and that it’s your job to make sure he’s not penalized for that. Can you explain?
STEVE MAZZAGATTI: He did what he was supposed to do under the rules he’s training under — that’s to jump up under there. He was using a lot of skill in doing what he does. He shouldn’t have had to worry about his head being hammerfisted. Unfortunately, that’s what happened to him, and that forced Mir to do something he shouldn’t have to, which is come out of the pocket. When he comes back out of the pocket, that allows Brock to use legal techniques… but he got there by illegal means.
MMAJUNKIE.COM: So, he loses his position? That’s why you restarted them standing?
STEVE MAZZAGATTI: Whenever a foul is committed — whether it’s considered intentional or unintentional — we take the position away, especially if it’s a dominant position. That’s just the way it is and the way it’s always been.
MMAJUNKIE.COM: At any point in the initial exchange, did you consider stopping the fight to award Lesnar the TKO victory? Mir was taking a lot of punishment even without the shots to the back of the head.
STEVE MAZZAGATTI: No, not all. To me, Frank was doing everything right. He was doing what he needed to. He was doing what he needed to for that position. If you watch a thousand Jiu-Jitsu guys in that position, a thousand guys would do what Frank did in that position. He could have kept the position if it weren’t for the strikes to the back of the head. He knew what he was doing.
MMAJUNKIE.COM: So, it was a matter of Mir intelligently defending himself?
STEVE MAZZAGATTI: Absolutely.
MMAJUNKIE.COM: After a tough call or controversial fight like that, do you immediately meet with the commission and Keith Kizer (the NSAC’s executive director)?
STEVE MAZZAGATTI: Absolutely. Keith is really good. We go over the scores and everything we saw and heard. I spoke about that whole fight. I explained to the judges and the commission and everyone else around there the whole fight. We’re constantly learning. We have a little discussion after the fight, and I’m telling them everything I saw and heard.
MMAJUNKIE.COM: Is this right after the fight — or after the event?
STEVE MAZZAGATTI: After the event. Well, we have a quick meeting before the event too. Look, we’re constantly learning and evolving and discussing different ways to make sure that the fighters get a fair shake. After that event, no matter how minor a point might be, we talk about it. That’s how how we’re going to improve.
 
#7 ·
It is not and has never been a conspiracy against Brock I don't think, just a mistake by Mazzagati. He says he warned Lesnar but it wasn't audible. This doesn't seem credible, not only could you hear most of the strikes which would definitely not be as loud but even Goldberg and Rogan at ringside said there was no warning. He also mentioned Lesnar using an illegal technique, there is no such thing as an illegal technique. He did however mention that strikes to the back of the head are his pet peeve and I think that is crystal clear now. I give him a lot of credit for doing this interview and answering some questions that didn't dance around the bush, but it's clear he made a mistake. Great read, repped.

I just watched the video for about the one hundredth time, and at 4:38 you can hear faintly Mazzagati warn about hitting to the back of the head, actually all you can really make out is "back of the head", but it is there. However, he broke it up less than two seconds later. So, he did in fact give a warning, but it was more like the preamble to breaking them up. I did not catch this until just now.
 
#8 ·
It is not and has never been a conspiracy against Brock I don't think, just a mistake by Mazzagati. He says he warned Lesnar but it wasn't audible. This doesn't seem credible, not only could you hear most of the strikes which would definitely not be as loud but even Goldberg and Rogan at ringside said there was no warning. He also mentioned Lesnar using an illegal technique, there is no such thing as an illegal technique. He did however mention that strikes to the back of the head are his pet peeve and I think that is crystal clear now. I give him a lot of credit for doing this interview and answering some questions that didn't dance around the bush, but it's clear he made a mistake. Great read, repped.
STEVE MAZZAGATTI said:
Accidental strikes happen. But when you look at the back of the guy’s head and connect, it’s, “OK, that might be cool. He didn’t mean it.” Then you hit twice, and it’s time to start considering if you’re doing it intentionally. Then the third one comes down, and that’s when I jump in and say, “No strikes to the back of the head!” as loudly as I possibly can. Brock knows what he did. He has nothing to say about it being controversial. I don’t think his corner protested at all about it. It’s all left to interpretation. STEVE MAZZAGATTI: Accidental strikes happen. But when you look at the back of the guy’s head and connect, it’s, “OK, that might be cool. He didn’t mean it.” Then you hit twice, and it’s time to start considering if you’re doing it intentionally. Then the third one comes down, and that’s when I jump in and say, “No strikes to the back of the head!” as loudly as I possibly can. Brock knows what he did. He has nothing to say about it being controversial. I don’t think his corner protested at all about it. It’s all left to interpretation. But was a foul committed? Yes, it was… If you look at the fight several times, unfortunately, the majority of the powerful shots were to the back of the head., it was… If you look at the fight several times, unfortunately, the majority of the powerful shots were to the back of the head.
He stated there was NO mistake.
Like I stated earlier, the conspiracy theorists wont let this go.
The only way you can refute this now is if you call Maz a liar.
 
#9 ·
Yeah nice read, this is what i thought all along.

I also like how he noted that mir had to go to a different (less defensive) position because he was taking damage to the back of the head, thats one reason why maz stopped it.
 
#15 ·
Mazz made a mistake standing them up and taking a point. He stood them up almost as his verbal warning was still coming out of his mouth. He also made a mistake implying that there is an illegal technique when in fact there is no such animal. He did however point out that strikes to the back of the head are his pet peeve and I'm fairly certain that played a role in his decision. Let me put it another way that might take some of the animosity out of this argument, if a different ref was calling that fight would it have been stood up? I personally don't think so, especially if it was Herb Dean.
 
#17 ·
So in other words, Brock did NOT do any illegal blows.
Hence, he should not have lost top position NOR the point.

Rather, from his vantage point, he saw blows that were 'close enough' and decided to take a point a way because of his own personal bias against shots to the back of the head.

So in other words, you ARE calling Maz a LIAR :)
because his statement clearly states he did indeed view 5 illegal blows.

Conspiracy #2, Maz is in on it ;)
 
#26 ·
If you watch it again you'll notice that Lesnar actually changes hands and position when his strikes begin to find the back of the head. He was attempting to strike legally but struggling as all fighters do when their opponent is squirming for a safer position. This happens in most fights with most fighters.
 
#57 ·
It's at 4:38 of the fight, and it's VERY difficult to hear and almost impossible to make out. I do think it's Mazzagatti warning to "watch the back of the head" but all you can hear is "the head" and he stands them up almost before he even finishes the sentence.

It really wasn't any kind of warning whatsoever. The ref has final say on whether a blow was legal or not and for arguments sake let's say in fact the blow/s were illegal, standing it up and deducting the point were almost unprecedented and without question a break from the norm. Once they were stood up the momentum was broken, damage was done. It's fair enough to say that they went right back to the ground and that Mir still had to beat him, all true, but we will never know if Lesnar was going to stop Mir in that first exchange on the ground. I think attention did a pretty good job of explaining the differences in opinions on this, and it's obvious at this point everyone is pretty much settled into their own thoughts on the matter.

Blood Junkie I'm not unhappy about the fight, even with that loss it was a very entertaining fight. Most of the discussion is about whether or not Mazzagatti made a mistake not whether or not we are unhappy with the fight. I think Lesnar AND Mir fans can come away from that fight happy, Brock made a strong showing and Mir took another step towards proving he is back.
 
#36 ·
Well my issue with the whole thing was not just the point being taken. (that didn't bother me that much)I thought there was no way he should stand them up but he did so ok whatever but then to take the time out really made it bullshit. Anyway at this point it is beating a dead horse.

Thats not the only issue I take with Mazzagatti, I just don't like the way he dose his job and is so inconsistent. He even goes on the say "You just can’t let the lower guys get beat up like you would an A-class guy", watch the last WEC he reffed then tell me what you think of that statement. He let some dude get absolutely pounded to dirt before he stopped it, I'm telling ya it was brutal lol.
 
#37 ·
Mazagatti says "I yelled loud enough for them to hear me" then admits he couldn't hear it himself when he reviewed it! :confused02:

This interview also did not address why he never did this before (take a point, call timeout, AND stood the fighters up) in other fights where there were repeated shots to the back of the head.

It's not the call itself or a "conspiracy" that's keeping this thread alive, at least for me. It's Mazagatti's horrific inconsistency and the fact that it played a part in ruining one of the biggest, most high profile fights in the history of the UFC. He doesn't even ask fighters if they're ready before he starts his fights FFS!

I don't see how it's excusable given the fact that he's been a ref for FOURTEEN years! The guy should be reffing prelims IMO.
 
#38 ·
Well the time out isn't pro or con either way, or that is how I see it.

In that interview he said he took a point off cause he says he issued a warning just before the second attack in which he went in to stop Brock. And there is audio of him saying something, about the same quality of the direction Kennedy's head went heh.

And he says before Mir almost fully laid back he was working to better his position, had his left arm hooked under Brocks right leg I believe, and he said that the illegal blows caused him to lose his hold of Brock's leg. So Brock gained a dominant position due to an illegal strike, therefore; he stood them up.
 
#39 ·
There si this thing people do- its called lying, or stating things diffeently especially after they have had a few days to come up with a response.

Just because he says it to defend himself doesn't eman anything.

Mazzagati can say what he wnats, but in all the fights where there ahve been blows to the back of the head, there was no stand up and no point deducted. No conspiracy, no set-up, just ref msitake and that is gonna happen.
 
#42 ·
There si this thing people do- its called lying, or stating things diffeently especially after they have had a few days to come up with a response.

Just because he says it to defend himself doesn't eman anything.

Mazzagati can say what he wnats, but in all the fights where there ahve been blows to the back of the head, there was no stand up and no point deducted. No conspiracy, no set-up, just ref mistake and that is gonna happen.
Are you just trying to ignore reading this cause i have stated this 2 times already and joey stated this again below please read!!!!!!

And he says before Mir almost fully laid back he was working to better his position, had his left arm hooked under Brocks right leg I believe, and he said that the illegal blows caused him to lose his hold of Brock's leg. So Brock gained a dominant position due to an illegal strike, therefore; he stood them up.
What is so hard to understand, he got a more dominated posistion due to the illegal strikes!
 
#40 ·
that's not true. i watched the event and was very excited about this fight. you can clearly hear the corner's and ref's instruction's throughout the fight. lesnar was never warned. mazzagati's account of the fight is off. three shot's to the back of the head. he said he warned lesnar. when has he ever deducted a point for hit's to the back of the head. when has any ref done that. brock was throwing very quickly and a warning being issued from the time of the first hammerfist to the third is too short for there to be a warning then a point deduction. but this doesn't even matter. the fact that he stood them up and made lesnar shoot again after he had established a dominant position changed the fight. it's the man's first fight in the ufc, he took mir down easily and was pounding him out. and he got penalized and had his position changed for a very common violation of the rules. you'd be hard pressed to find many fights where hitting to the back of the head doesn't occur. mir won that's a fact, and he won it fair and square. overall the ref has the final say and mazzagati has always done a good job. yet in this fight lesnar, as a rookie in the ufc probably wasn't thinking he would be fighting mir and the ref. it was a fast and harsh decision that changed the momentum of the fight.
 
#47 ·
Again... you guys keep saying that he was not warned but in the video you can hear the warning!!!....it would be great if everybody dropped that point from their argument since it has been proven that there was a warning. If people want to be unhappy about the fight they should find a valid point to be unhappy with.:thumb02:
 
#43 ·
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#44 ·
By the way, if you find a good quality video (and there's one in particular that starts with the tale of the tape screen) you can hear Mazz at 4:38 on the UFC clock yelling "Back of the head." Though it was ridiculously loud in there, once looking for it I can hear it, which means Brock - 2 feet away, could hear it better than the camera that caught the audio.

Was it loud enough, maybe not and the guy admitted that. But all of the people saying he never warned him and calling him a liar are wrong. 4:38 go see for yourself, about 5 seconds before he stops it.
 
#45 ·
Heh, as much as I would like to confirm your finding, I cant hear anything.
I can barely make out something like 'watch the head' or something garbled 'something' 'something' head...
Of course, my hearing sucks ... too much loud music

if anyone would like a shot, this is a raw mpeg2 1080i with audio ... its about as good as it gets, straight from my PVR. (7MB)

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=2S8DVO2F
 
#48 ·
I don't understand the controversy.

Lesnar had a dominant position on top, and used it to land up to 5, but for arguments sake, definately 2, illegal blows to the back of the head; so Maz took away said dominant top position and restarted them neutrally. The 1 point is irrelevent.

This is clear cut. Brock broke the rules, and his punishment was to lose his dominant position. Doesn't really matter though because he got another one, and his inexperience cost him the match. Maz even let Brock tap out twice before he called it to a stop.

Some of you are grasping at straws, while others are just being plain stupid about the whole thing.
 
#49 ·
I didnt understand it as well at first.

But there is just a difference of opinion regarding what actually happened.

(1) It all starts from the 'illegal' blow. There is an opinion that the blow was not illegal, rather it was 'close' to being illegal... but not 'entirely' illegal.

(2) Maz has stated that illegal blows to the back of the head are a pet peeve of his, demonstrating his bias.

(3) Maz has stated that he is bias against Class 'A' versus Class 'B' fighters.

So, while one camp believes that Maz actually saw the first set of illegal hammerfists, shouted the warning, then saw a second set of illegal hammerfists, and then proceeded to stand them up.

The other camp believes that Maz mistakenly saw what he thought was illegal blows, didnt warn, saw a second set of 'near enough, but still legal' blows, and then proceeded to stand them up.

IMHO, it looked like it to me... but what do I know.
I would like to believe that the Refs are unbias, it would make it difficult for me to continue watching MMA under the assumption that the Ref will favor one fighter over another.

It could very well be simply a bad call on Maz's part.
 
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