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Old 09-07-2008, 11:59 AM   #21 (permalink)
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I thought about this same topic quite a bit since a few events back, and more-so since last night's.

I really don't think aggression is going to become extinct. I think fighters that have the natural aggression and can fight the game which ever way it goes(a brawl or a cautious fight) without being taken out of their element are going to thrive.

The problem is that some fighters DEPEND on their adversary to be aggressive in order for there to be a fight at all.

Take Liddell, for his style to be at its most effective, he absolutely needs the other fighter to bring the fight to him, either by trying to take him down or by trying to strike with him. Liddell is taken out of his element if the other fighter is just going stay back and be cautious.

Then there's Machida. For a fight to happen at all, his opponent is going to have to come after him. If 2 Machida's fought each other nothing would happen for 15 minutes.

The problem here is that in order for fighters to be asked back to events and to make big money, they have to have exciting fights, and if you're always depending on the other fighter's style to make it possible, then you're at their mercy. It doesn't mater if you've been beating fools this way for 10 years and they've all been willing to come at you and play your game at the possible expense of losing. You know why? Because it was up to THEM, and not YOU.

The sport may be slowly changing to one of gameplans/strategy, but a naturally aggressive fighter can handle a slower fight, as well as the brawl that ensues when the crowd starts to boo.
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Old 09-07-2008, 12:09 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I know exactly what you mean man, great idea for a post, rep't. It's all due to the fact that there is so much riding on a loss these days and win too for that matter. There will always be aggression but it's not like it used to be. In the end though it's the aggressive fighters that win the fans over and stick around winning or loosing. Look at Houston Alexander. He just signed another 5 fight deal for 1 reason only. He's aggressive.
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Old 09-07-2008, 12:28 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Old 09-07-2008, 12:36 PM   #24 (permalink)
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There Was Never Aggression

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Originally Posted by RushFan View Post
Henderson and Evans won both their fights despite a complete lack of aggression. If this is the "game plan" of the future then count me out.

Henderson was completely reactive against Pulhares and resisted the fight going to ground at all costs. He was eventually awarded a decision.
Similarly, Evans retreated non stop and refused to engage Liddell in any meaningful way until he scored a "grand slam" KO.

These tactics disgust me and foretell a very dismal MMA future.
Thoughts?
Firstly, the idea that aggression has ever been the road to victory in this sport is idiotic. Look at Royce and Rickson Gracie, look at Mark Kerr, look at Nogueira and at CroCop and at Fedor.

Through every generation of this sport, the fighters that have remained dominant have been the fighters who have seen this sport as technical, as a matter of gaming, not as a matter of banging.

Idiots go to war with their emotions on their sleeves. Fighters who do that, occasionally, make for an exciting match, but fighters who show consistency don't have to fall back to visceral behavior.

If you think that some gameplans are boring, that's fine, but if you think that the issue is emotionality, then you haven't paid any attention to any of the dozens of world class fighters who have distanced themselves from emotion to compete as athletes.

I agree that those fights sucked. I don't agree, though, that the reason they sucked has anything to do with the emotion of the fighters. It is, in a very real way, a reflection of those two individuals and their planning.

The aggression issue is a figment of your imagination, just an overarching problem you concocted because there were two stupid gameplans on the card last night. Two sh*tty gameplans is bad, but it's not a pattern, and there are far to many exceptions to this statement to make it worth calling a rule.
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Old 09-07-2008, 01:26 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I hate to sound like a jerk man, but go watch some Kimbo fights. I thought the level of education on these boards was enough to realize how excellent and beautiful those gameplans were. I was really impressed with Henderson's composure and his gameplan. While he could have been a little more aggressive on the feet, it was a smart gameplan.

I think you guys need to understand. Rashad Evans vs. Chuck Liddell is a fight of the elites. These guys are premier fighters. They come into these fights with specific gameplans and large skillsets. Not taking anything away from other fighters, but usually the "exciting fighters" are 1). Elite fighters fighting lesser opponents or 2) Two mid-tier guys fighting. Rashad and Chuck was a treat to watch and a beauty in execution of MMA Gameplans. I thought it was EXCITING to watch Rashad completely toy with Chuck's mind, make him impatient then finish with a Highlight blow.

You guys are the same guys that consider grappling to be "gay" and Lyoto Machida fights boring.

Education.

(Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk).
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Old 09-07-2008, 01:26 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
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[

The aggression issue is a figment of your imagination, just an overarching problem you concocted because there were two stupid gameplans on the card last night. Two sh*tty gameplans is bad, but it's not a pattern, and there are far to many exceptions to this statement to make it worth calling a rule.
I'm talking about fights being entertaining! I couldn't care less who won each fight or which strategy was effective.
Both fights were tedious!

I'm speaking about fights where distinct lacks of aggression result in a benefit to a fighter.
IMO Rashad's overly defensive "gameplan" understood that eventually Liddell would become more reckless, trying to press the fight, and openings would arise.
I think Liddell could have jabbed his way to decision, except he responded to the fans which demanded something more.
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Old 09-07-2008, 01:35 PM   #27 (permalink)
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You claim to be a mass debater, yet when one refutes your opinion, you Neg Rep then saying "You gargle penis". Very classy bud.

Edit: Did you not see Nate Marquardt's fight? He knew it would be an excellent game plan to rush the better technical striker from the get go, being "aggressive", and he finished and won the fight. Great gameplan, and I'm sure it satisfied your need for aggression.
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Old 09-07-2008, 01:48 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RushFan View Post
I'm talking about fights being entertaining! I couldn't care less who won each fight or which strategy was effective.
Both fights were tedious!
Because Fedor's fights with CroCop and Nogueira were boring. Because the Liddell/Couture matchups and the early Royce Gracie fights were boring.

So it must be an aggression issue, right, because all of those really composed fighters are boring.

You're an idiot.


Quote:
I'm speaking about fights where distinct lacks of aggression result in a benefit to a fighter.
IMO Rashad's overly defensive "gameplan" understood that eventually Liddell would become more reckless, trying to press the fight, and openings would arise.
I think Liddell could have jabbed his way to decision, except he responded to the fans which demanded something more.
Ummm... I'm going to bother to go down a list of fights where the more composed fighter won, fights that were exciting, because it would start with Royce and Rickson Gracie, move on to Fedor vs. Randleman and continue on to all of BJ and Kenny Florian's lightweight fights.

Rashad's gameplan was boring. I agree with you that the gameplan sucked, but if you think that a lack of aggression is what made it a bad gameplan, then you really don't understand the sport.
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Old 09-07-2008, 01:50 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I'm talking about fights being entertaining! I couldn't care less who won each fight or which strategy was effective.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RushFan View Post
I think Liddell could have jabbed his way to decision, except he responded to the fans which demanded something more.
So, Liddell lost because he responded to fans like you? Fans not interested in strategy or who wins/loses?
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Old 09-07-2008, 01:55 PM   #30 (permalink)
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IronMan, I wouldn't say his gameplan sucked, as it scored him the win. I think a more suitable adjective would be cautious, conservative, smart or "I want to win, I don't care about being a Kimbo".
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