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View Poll Results: Was Brock Lesnar gassed after his three round domination of Heath Herring?

Yes 10 11.76%
No 64 75.29%
Dont know 11 12.94%
Voters: 85. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-29-2008, 09:21 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 69nites View Post
dirty boxing doesn't push cardio.

Lesnar has a more successful amature wrestling carreer.

Being a failing olympic alternate isn't a measure of success and Lesnar's Collage record dominates Couture's.

+ the clinch is a power struggle Lesnar's strength/size and Amature Champion level wrestling put him at a large advantage....

There's a complete difference between pure collegiate level wrestling, and Greco-Roman prowess. Randy is masterful in the clinch, despite Brock's size/strength advantage, that's one area in the fight that unanimously favors Randy. No if, ands or buts. It's a complete different realm then pure grappling because clinch work focuses more on positioning, looking for trips and sweeps when the gap is closed.
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:23 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by HexRei View Post
Have you ever trained greco clinch? I have. It's extremely exhausting. Now add in punches, elbows, and knees. Yeah, it does push cardio like crazy actually.

Brock did have a better amateur career. Then he started doing redneck gymnastics for a living.

Lesnar has virtually no credentials at all in Greco Roman. His experience is in freestyle and collegiate where leg takedowns are emphasized and clinch takedowns are relatively rare. So no, he won't have the same skills as Randy in the clinch, and he's going to have to exert himself a lot more to make up for that. He also has shown almost literally no dirty boxing skills, whereas Randy is one of the best in the business.

We've never seen Brock take hits before really. What is he going to do after Randy rings his bell a few times in the clinch? Brock could even find himself on the receiving end of a takedown.
have you ever wrestled or clinched with anyone 40+ lbs heavier than you? Or lighter than you?

in all honesty I've worn lighter guys out by getting control and dropping weight on them in a clinch. Being that I am at a level to know how I'm pretty sure lesnar is too.

Brock is a wrestler at a pretty high level. Dirty boxing wouldn't be very successful against someone with his level of control.

Lastly, those "gymnastics" actually do give brock an advantage in the clinch situation because he got a lot of practice picking up guys heavier than couture. A slam type takedown is very likely if Couture were to try to clinch with Lesnar.
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:24 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ThaFranchise View Post
dont think he was that active on the ground since Herring pretty much jus layed there and took it.
True, but I dont think many people could keep Heath on his back for 14.9 minutes either.
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:27 PM   #44 (permalink)
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I wouldn't say he was gassed but he was definetly tired.
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:28 PM   #45 (permalink)
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I think that Brock's cardio is good for his size, but insufficient for a fight against Randy. If we look at his last fight, where he spent the vast majority of it riding Herring, Lesnar's pace slowed dramatically as the fight carried on. If Herring had the tools to actually put up a fight, I'm very sure that Lesnar would have looked worse than sluggish in the 3rd.

Randy's clinch is what I believe will push Brock past his cardiovascular threshold.

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Originally Posted by 69nites View Post

+ the clinch is a power struggle Lesnar's strength/size and Amature Champion level wrestling put him at a large advantage....
Wrong. Clearly you don't train or know anything about the clinch. If you have nothing but strength, then EVERYTHING is a power struggle. If you possess sound technique, other factors besides raw strength come into play -- such as leverage and timing.

As Hex Rei said, Freestyle Wrestling (which Brock did) is more about shooting than clinch work. Greco Roman, on the other hand, is all clinch. Unless you've actually worked with somebody who did it, I doubt that you could comprehend the intricacies of that sport. And I hopefully don't have to tell you that there's a difference between shooting and clinchwork.

Even more so, having re-watched the fights, Brock's shooting isn't even that good from a technical standpoint. Two of his 3 shots had no penetration. One of them got nowhere; Heath just turned around into a failed attempt at a Judo throw. The other one had no penetration either. Brock just powered through it. He put his shoulder against Heath's midsection (but not hard enough to topple his balance) then pulled on his legs and fell into it.

Sure, it worked, but that won't suffice against Randy.

Unless he's gotten significantly worse over his year off, Randy will have the advantage in the clinch and probably score a takedown. That is, unless his head gets taken off by a XXL sized hand.

(Either way, I will sig-bet with somebody on the outcome of that fight. )
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:37 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Kin View Post
I think that Brock's cardio is good for his size, but insufficient for a fight against Randy. If we look at his last fight, where he spent the vast majority of it riding Herring, Lesnar's pace slowed dramatically as the fight carried on. If Herring had the tools to actually put up a fight, I'm very sure that Lesnar would have looked worse than sluggish in the 3rd.

Randy's clinch is what I believe will push Brock past his cardiovascular threshold.



Wrong. Clearly you don't train or know anything about the clinch. If you have nothing but strength, then EVERYTHING is a power struggle. If you possess sound technique, other factors besides raw strength come into play -- such as leverage and timing.

As Hex Rei said, Freestyle Wrestling (which Brock did) is more about shooting than clinch work. Greco Roman, on the other hand, is all clinch. Unless you've actually worked with somebody who did it, I doubt that you could comprehend the intricacies of that sport. And I hopefully don't have to tell you that there's a difference between shooting and clinchwork.

Even more so, having re-watched the fights, Brock's shooting isn't even that good from a technical standpoint. Two of his 3 shots had no penetration. One of them got nowhere; Heath just turned around into a failed attempt at a Judo throw. The other one had no penetration either. Brock just powered through it. He put his shoulder against Heath's midsection (but not hard enough to topple his balance) then pulled on his legs and fell into it.

Sure, it worked, but that won't suffice against Randy.

Unless he's gotten significantly worse over his year off, Randy will have the advantage in the clinch and probably score a takedown. That is, unless his head gets taken off by a XXL sized hand.

(Either way, I will sig-bet with somebody on the outcome of that fight. )
I do all of my clinchwork Thai style but train with wrestlers too.

The only thing about the clinch that tests my cardio is if I have to throw knees... But hey I can do that for a couple rounds and still have the cardio left to run a 7 min mile.

really if I were lesnar I'd bait randy and let him take me down. What's he going to do on the ground? Score his 4th sub? Doubtful I'd put money on lesnar sweeping him.
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:44 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 69nites View Post
I do all of my clinchwork Thai style but train with wrestlers too.

The only thing about the clinch that tests my cardio is if I have to throw knees... But hey I can do that for a couple rounds and still have the cardio left to run a 7 min mile.

really if I were lesnar I'd bait randy and let him take me down. What's he going to do on the ground? Score his 4th sub? Doubtful I'd put money on lesnar sweeping him.
My statement has been retracted then, about you not training. That being said, Thai clinchwork is a completely different game. Even in over-under clinches, they use it in a completely different manner.

Also, what kind of wrestlers do you train with? If it's not Greco, it don't count.

My wrestling coach was a D1 Greco Roman wrestler. From him I've learned that there's a LOT more going into the clinch than pure muscle. Though I already knew that much from my other training, I had never guessed the intricacies of the art.

He weighs 170 and I've watched him manhandle one of our 205 fighters in the clinch as well as one of our 265 lbs guys, who did Freestyle all throughout high school. In fact, using some of what my wrestling coach taught me, I've taken down that behemoth once or twice and I weigh only 150. Again, I've got to point out that freestyle and greco are completley different games.

EDIT:

What will Randy do on the ground? Break Lesnar's will with strikes. I'm pretty sure that Lesnar will get flustered if he takes enough shots to the face and probably freak out on the ground if he finds himself on the bottom and unable to avoid shots. And, sure, if he leaves himself open, maybe Randy will sub him. But more likely than not, he'll just grind him out until he gets a UD.
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:52 PM   #48 (permalink)
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My statement has been retracted then, about you not training. That being said, Thai clinchwork is a completely different game. Even in over-under clinches, they use it in a completely different manner.

Also, what kind of wrestlers do you train with? If it's not Greco, it don't count.

My wrestling coach was a D1 Greco Roman wrestler. From him I've learned that there's a LOT more going into the clinch than pure muscle. Though I already knew that much from my other training, I had never guessed the intricacies of the art.

He weighs 170 and I've watched him manhandle one of our 205 fighters in the clinch as well as one of our 265 lbs guys, who did Freestyle all throughout high school. In fact, using some of what my wrestling coach taught me, I've taken down that behemoth once or twice and I weigh only 150. Again, I've got to point out that freestyle and greco are completley different games.

EDIT:

What will Randy do on the ground? Break Lesnar's will with strikes. I'm pretty sure that Lesnar will get flustered if he takes enough shots to the face and probably freak out on the ground if he finds himself on the bottom and unable to avoid shots. And, sure, if he leaves himself open, maybe Randy will sub him. But more likely than not, he'll just grind him out until he gets a UD.
I understand that it takes more than muscle, but you're not talking about a teacher student difference in skill levels. there's also probably a larger strength differencial here.

I know that my partners work in the clinch Greco style but I don't really know if they ever competed in Greco Roman wrestling.

Edit to battle your edit: Lesnar should be more than capable of controlling Randy on the ground even if he's on bottom. That is a position you KNOW Lesnar is comfortable in .

Last edited by 69nites : 09-29-2008 at 09:55 PM.
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Old 09-29-2008, 10:31 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 69nites View Post
I understand that it takes more than muscle, but you're not talking about a teacher student difference in skill levels. there's also probably a larger strength differencial here.

I know that my partners work in the clinch Greco style but I don't really know if they ever competed in Greco Roman wrestling.

Edit to battle your edit: Lesnar should be more than capable of controlling Randy on the ground even if he's on bottom. That is a position you KNOW Lesnar is comfortable in .
Okay, I guess I shouldn't have used the teacher vs student example. How about this one? One of the guys who used to go to my MMA gym placed in the nationals in HS wrestling. I weighed a bit more than him, but he was far stronger and better conditioned. Again, using some Greco Roman moves my coach taught me, I was able to take him down if I was able to clinch up with him. The difference in our skill favored him, save for me having more tricks in the clinch dept than him.

But even that point is moot because, in the clinch, there will be an enormous disparity of skill between Randy and Brock. It probably will be comparable to the difference between my wrestling coach and a capable high school wrestler. Why? Because one of them (Brock) has only a small amount of experience in that area, while that is his opponents specialty.

As to how that relates to draining his cardio, it is because Brock will try to compensate for their difference in skill by using strength. That inefficient expendature will tire him. Yet, if he doesn't use his strength and size (the only advantage he has in the clinch) he'll get taken down quickly.

Though I hate to admit to being slow on the uptake, I don't get what you mean by 'Brock's used to being on the bottom.'
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Old 09-29-2008, 10:39 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Okay, I guess I shouldn't have used the teacher vs student example. How about this one? One of the guys who used to go to my MMA gym placed in the nationals in HS wrestling. I weighed a bit more than him, but he was far stronger and better conditioned. Again, using some Greco Roman moves my coach taught me, I was able to take him down if I was able to clinch up with him. The difference in our skill favored him, save for me having more tricks in the clinch dept than him.

But even that point is moot because, in the clinch, there will be an enormous disparity of skill between Randy and Brock. It probably will be comparable to the difference between my wrestling coach and a capable high school wrestler. Why? Because one of them (Brock) has only a small amount of experience in that area, while that is his opponents specialty.

As to how that relates to draining his cardio, it is because Brock will try to compensate for their difference in skill by using strength. That inefficient expendature will tire him. Yet, if he doesn't use his strength and size (the only advantage he has in the clinch) he'll get taken down quickly.

Though I hate to admit to being slow on the uptake, I don't get what you mean by 'Brock's used to being on the bottom.'
who said used to?

Comfortable.

as a wrestler he has a lot of experience sweeping and reversing takedowns. on top of that I don't think him controlling Randy's posture to minimize any damage randy could do from the top will be much of a challenge if he fights smart.
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