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Old 10-20-2008, 04:44 PM   #1 (permalink)
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How good is Brock Lesnar?

I have seen a lot of hate for Lesnar lately. People saying that he's not that good. I thought I'd look at the odds of him beatting the top 10 (IMO, please don't go nuts, because I left someone out that is near and dear to you're heart, or if you don't like the order)

10. Cro Cop- 10-1 Lesnar. With Cro Cop's diminished skills and weakness on the ground, I don't see Lesnar having much trouble

9. Rothwell- 5-1 Lesnar. Rothwell would get easily ground and pounded.

8. Gonzaga- 3-2 Lesnar. I think this would be an interesting battle. Gonzaga would end up on his back, but he has a real chance of submitting Lesnar from there.

7. Werdum- 3-2 Werdum. I think that this fight is similar to Gonzaga, but Werdum is a little better.

6. Syliva- 2-1 Lesnar. A little harder for Lesnar to shoot against Sylvia's height, but I think he gets the takedown and wins.

5. Arlovski- 3-1 Lesnar. Remember Arlovski almost getting pounded out by o'brien? Lesnar would have no problem.

4. Barnett- 2-1 Barnett. Barnett's wrestling ability would benefit him greatly. Plus he has good submissions.

3. Couture- 3-2 Couture. Couture's wrestling and elusiveness could be used to keep the fight standing. Couture proved he could box against Sylvia.

2. NOG- 3-1 NOG. NOG submits Lesnar, bottomline

1. Fedor- 2-1 Fedor. Fedor's lack of wrestling is going to give him some problems. I think Fedor might be able knock Lesnar out on his feet before he gets the chance to shoot, or submit him from the bottom.

What do you guys think?
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Old 10-20-2008, 04:49 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I agree except I'd put gonzaga ahead on lesnar and put lensar ahead on Couture.

I'd probably give Fedor more of an advantage as well
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Old 10-20-2008, 04:50 PM   #3 (permalink)
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K first off putting Cro Cop ahead of Overeem is retarted and that's not debatable.

These are the most random odds I've ever seen.

This threads been done 100 times.

Anyway Werdum, Gonzaga, Barnett, Fedor and Nogueira walk through him.

Arlovski has some of the best Takedown defense in MMA you didn't mention that.

You also failed to bring up the lack of GnP Lesnar has shown.

The only way he beats any of the true top 10 is by Lay and Pray atm.
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Old 10-20-2008, 04:52 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Oh--- this is gonna be a good thread---

I have it pretty close to what you have it--- BUT--- I agree with 69nites on the Gonzaga assessment, +rep (good thread).

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Old 10-20-2008, 04:54 PM   #5 (permalink)
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K first off putting Cro Cop ahead of Overeem is retarted and that's not debatable.

These are the most random odds I've ever seen.

This threads been done 100 times.

Anyway Werdum, Gonzaga, Barnett, Fedor and Nogueira walk through him.

Arlovski has some of the best Takedown defense in MMA you didn't mention that.

You also failed to bring up the lack of GnP Lesnar has shown.

The only way he beats any of the true top 10 is by Lay and Pray atm.
Fat ass still got him down.
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Old 10-20-2008, 04:58 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by rockybalboa25 View Post
I have seen a lot of hate for Lesnar lately. People saying that he's not that good. I thought I'd look at the odds of him beatting the top 10 (IMO, please don't go nuts, because I left someone out that is near and dear to you're heart, or if you don't like the order)

10. Cro Cop- 10-1 Lesnar. With Cro Cop's diminished skills and weakness on the ground, I don't see Lesnar having much trouble

9. Rothwell- 5-1 Lesnar. Rothwell would get easily ground and pounded.

8. Gonzaga- 3-2 Lesnar. I think this would be an interesting battle. Gonzaga would end up on his back, but he has a real chance of submitting Lesnar from there.

7. Werdum- 3-2 Werdum. I think that this fight is similar to Gonzaga, but Werdum is a little better.

6. Syliva- 2-1 Lesnar. A little harder for Lesnar to shoot against Sylvia's height, but I think he gets the takedown and wins.

5. Arlovski- 3-1 Lesnar. Remember Arlovski almost getting pounded out by o'brien? Lesnar would have no problem.

4. Barnett- 2-1 Barnett. Barnett's wrestling ability would benefit him greatly. Plus he has good submissions.

3. Couture- 3-2 Couture. Couture's wrestling and elusiveness could be used to keep the fight standing. Couture proved he could box against Sylvia.

2. NOG- 3-1 NOG. NOG submits Lesnar, bottomline

1. Fedor- 2-1 Fedor. Fedor's lack of wrestling is going to give him some problems. I think Fedor might be able knock Lesnar out on his feet before he gets the chance to shoot, or submit him from the bottom.

What do you guys think?
I'd agree with you for the most part, except...

I'd favor Gonzaga and Tim over Lesnar. Gonzaga would Sub Brock and I think Tim would KO him. Brock has looked powerful and fast, but his wrestling hasn't looked as great as I had initially thought (before re-watching). It's not very technically sound; he kind of just bowls people over with his massive size.

Looking at the fight against Mir, Lesnar pretty much caught a kick and shoulder-checked him. Against Herring, Lesnar shot 3 times. The first time, he was already bombing forward, so his momentum was there even if it lacked finesse. In his other 2 shots, he had no penetration. He just hugged Herring's waist and yanked out his legs.

Plus, right now, I don't have too much faith in Brock's wind. After riding Herring out for 3 rounds, he slowed down a LOT. If somebody actually managed to put some pressure on him, I think that Brock would be pretty beat before the fight is over.

And against somebody tall who is tall and can defend a takedown (like Sylvia) Brock's lackluster shots won't be as effective as they have been thus far. Oh, and I'm pretty sure that Randy will be taking him down.

So how good is Lesnar? For someone with so little experience, he's damned good. He's big, he's strong, he's fast, he's explosive, and he's got a good base. That will create problems for the vast majority of his potential opponents. However, I don't feel that he's where he needs to be in terms of technique. Furthermore, I feel like he's way more of an attribute fighter than a skill fighter. If he wasn't the size of a truck, he wouldn't be any good. (Not that it detracts from him in the grand scheme of things, since he's not getting any smaller.)
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Old 10-20-2008, 05:05 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I think on some of these strikers like Sylvia and Arlovski you are overrating the usefulness of his takedowns. I think he'd have problems with each of those guys because even if he gets a takedown, he hasn't really showed much finishing power. Each of these guys has trained to defend GnP (which seems to be Lesnar's only tool on the ground) and may well be able to defelct or lessen most of the damage.

And he will get stood up at least twice thanks to the rounds ending, that's assuming they are never able to get up on their own or reverse which I think either guy has a good chance of doing.. Each time Lesnar is stood up he has to face the striker again and we don't know much at all about Lesnar's chin right now, especially against a guy with real KO power which I don't think any of Lesnar's three opponents so far has had.

So I'd rate his odds against Sylvia or Arlovski much lower. I'd also add Shane Carwin to the list (not because he's top 10, but because I think he'd give Lesnar fits). Lesnar will have no real size advantage there, and Carwin is not only a strong wrestler but has better striking and proven submission ability. We have never seen Lesnar use a submission or KO anyone on the feet, Carwin has finished opponents with both methods.
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Old 10-20-2008, 05:20 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by rockybalboa25 View Post
I have seen a lot of hate for Lesnar lately. People saying that he's not that good. I thought I'd look at the odds of him beatting the top 10 (IMO, please don't go nuts, because I left someone out that is near and dear to you're heart, or if you don't like the order)

10. Cro Cop- 10-1 Lesnar. With Cro Cop's diminished skills and weakness on the ground, I don't see Lesnar having much trouble

9. Rothwell- 5-1 Lesnar. Rothwell would get easily ground and pounded.

8. Gonzaga- 3-2 Lesnar. I think this would be an interesting battle. Gonzaga would end up on his back, but he has a real chance of submitting Lesnar from there.

7. Werdum- 3-2 Werdum. I think that this fight is similar to Gonzaga, but Werdum is a little better.

6. Syliva- 2-1 Lesnar. A little harder for Lesnar to shoot against Sylvia's height, but I think he gets the takedown and wins.

5. Arlovski- 3-1 Lesnar. Remember Arlovski almost getting pounded out by o'brien? Lesnar would have no problem.

4. Barnett- 2-1 Barnett. Barnett's wrestling ability would benefit him greatly. Plus he has good submissions.

3. Couture- 3-2 Couture. Couture's wrestling and elusiveness could be used to keep the fight standing. Couture proved he could box against Sylvia.

2. NOG- 3-1 NOG. NOG submits Lesnar, bottomline

1. Fedor- 2-1 Fedor. Fedor's lack of wrestling is going to give him some problems. I think Fedor might be able knock Lesnar out on his feet before he gets the chance to shoot, or submit him from the bottom.

What do you guys think?
Fedor will not fight standing if he face Lesnar. Lesnar might tackle Fedor out of the ring or against the fence. Fedor will absolutely take Lesnar to the ground and go for a submission.

Fedor will win!
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Old 10-20-2008, 05:31 PM   #9 (permalink)
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striking - average at best w/ big power early in the fight

wrestling - between good and great....his control is great, but his GnP isn't good at all

bjj - he will probably never use bjj offensively, but defensively it's probably below average

cardio - between decent and good
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Old 10-20-2008, 05:49 PM   #10 (permalink)
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The perceived negatives about Brock Lesnar's previous "career choices" are well documented, so I won't repeat them here. What I will say, however, is that his physical gifts are second to none in the heavyweight division

1. his hands: there's no one in mixed martial arts who wears 4XL gloves. No one, that is, except Brock Lesnar and HongMan Choi and the latter is quite a bit taller than 6'3", eh?

2. his reach: 81", which is longer than Sylvia, at 6' 8"

3. his power is overwhelming. Frank Mir was so overwhelmed by his strength, he couldn't even recall what he was trying to do in the match against Lesnar.

When you combine Brock's power with his leverage with the sheer size of his hands, you get devastating knockout power. Herring, who is by no means a small heavyweight, tumbled backwards nearly 360 degrees after the FIRST punch of the bout.

4. speed: again, Mir was startled by how quickly Brock Lesnar, at 280+, moves.

5. Although this is not much of a factor in MMA, if at all, citing this stat simply gives you a sense of how athletic this big man is. Lesnar's vertical leap is 36". This is the type of vertical leap seen in hall of fame basketball players: Kobe Bryant's (best basketball player on the planet) vertical leap is 38" for example.

---

Mark my words, if Brock Lesnar ever gets serious about adding BJJ to his fight game, it's over. He will lose fights, to be sure (after all, he only has three pro bouts under his belt), but everyone of his opponents will get seriously hurt in the process.

With his wrestling, striking, unparalleled physical gifts in his division, and the potential to add BJJ and even some muy thai knee strikes, he could become a dominant force for the next five years in MMA.
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