Mir vs. Nog, I never thought about it this way. - Page 4 - MMA Forum - UFC Forums - UFC Results - MMA Videos
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post #31 of 92 (permalink) Old 12-01-2008, 09:39 AM
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See to me it does matter because I keep hearing he's back to his old self and all this stuff but I haven't seen it submitting two guys with crappy BJJ doesn't prove he is this top level fighter again.

And honestly I don't think he's that good to begin with. I don't think the best performance from Mir would be enough. His submissions aren't good enough IMO to submit Nogueira, His striking is dreadful, and he isn't a very good wrestler.

Forrest had ways to beat Shogun. Looking at the fight I thought he could outstrike Shogun and win a decision now Shogun ended up gassing and Forrest messed him up on the feet and then took control but I don't see anyway Mir wins this not that he can't but I don't think he will. If he does this for me will go up there with GSP vs Serra.
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post #32 of 92 (permalink) Old 12-01-2008, 10:54 AM
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See to me it does matter because I keep hearing he's back to his old self and all this stuff but I haven't seen it submitting two guys with crappy BJJ doesn't prove he is this top level fighter again.

And honestly I don't think he's that good to begin with. I don't think the best performance from Mir would be enough. His submissions aren't good enough IMO to submit Nogueira, His striking is dreadful, and he isn't a very good wrestler.

Forrest had ways to beat Shogun. Looking at the fight I thought he could outstrike Shogun and win a decision now Shogun ended up gassing and Forrest messed him up on the feet and then took control but I don't see anyway Mir wins this not that he can't but I don't think he will. If he does this for me will go up there with GSP vs Serra.
Couldn't agree more. There were actually quite a few who did see Forrest defeat Shogun.

If we say that neither can/will submit the other, whihc is pretty likely, Nog still has better striking, wrestling and cardio (not to speak about mentality). Two questions arises from here:

1. How can Mir win? Chances seem pretty slim, and

2. How the f### can Mir be 200 times the athlete Nog is!?!?

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post #33 of 92 (permalink) Old 12-01-2008, 11:09 AM
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Mir has some very interesting and under-utilised subs, and he slaps them on you with real force. "Dynamic" and "unorthadox" are words i would use to describe Mir's ground game....i don't care what anyone says, it's very good and he's a true student of the art.

Serious question, but has Nog fought anyone recently with such a game? If not, it's not out of the question that Mir could just simply surprise Nog with something out of the ordinary. If he does, and applies it with the force we know he can....Nog may be tapping before he has a chance to counter.

I don't think Mir will win this fight either, but i can see at least one way for it to happen.

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post #34 of 92 (permalink) Old 12-01-2008, 12:20 PM
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Mir has some very interesting and under-utilised subs, and he slaps them on you with real force. "Dynamic" and "unorthadox" are words i would use to describe Mir's ground game....i don't care what anyone says, it's very good and he's a true student of the art.

Serious question, but has Nog fought anyone recently with such a game? If not, it's not out of the question that Mir could just simply surprise Nog with something out of the ordinary. If he does, and applies it with the force we know he can....Nog may be tapping before he has a chance to counter.

I don't think Mir will win this fight either, but i can see at least one way for it to happen.
I completely agree. Mir has a good chance in this fight. Would I put money on him? No. But to say he has no way to win is crazy. Mir has ugly stand-up but Nog is not exactly dynamic by any stretch of the imagination. Nog is and should be the favorite but if Mir wins I would not be one bit surprised.
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post #35 of 92 (permalink) Old 12-01-2008, 07:01 PM
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+Rep to the above 2 posters.

The only way Forrest was gonna win was to stuff his takedowns and outbox him for points and win a close decision. Nobody thought he would choke out Shogun and most didn't even think he would outbox him.

What I'm trying to say is, fighters don't always fight the exact same way. There are so many factors that play into a fight. Using past fights as a "sure-fire" way to predict an outcome to a future fight is impossible. It just simply doesn't work that way, not in this case anyway.

If we were sitting here trying to predict the outcome of say Cheick Kongo vs Nog, then it would make a little more sense to use past fights to try and predict this fight. You could say Cheick clearly has trouble with people who have good ground games and takedowns, in every single fight since he started MMA, and with Nogueira being great at both, yea chances are Nog is gonna win. But with Frank, you just have no idea. It's all speculation and opinion.

That said Nog is clearly the favorite but I just don't see how some of you can still be so lopsided in your predictions. It seems like you woulda learned your lesson by now with all the crazy upsets.
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post #36 of 92 (permalink) Old 12-01-2008, 07:09 PM
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About subbing Traven: MMA BJJ and pure BJJ are 2 totally different things.

Last time Nog faced a great ground fighter, he beat him by UD.

Nogueira has faced guys like Werdum and Barnett, and he beat both of them (Avenging his loss to Josh), what makes you think Mir will sub the guy? I mean, seriously, dude got severely whomped by Cruz, who I love, but Cruz is not Nogueira.

Griffin vs Shogun is a bad comparison, since Forrest had better stand-up, was great on the ground and was way bigger than Shogun. Why idiots thought Shogun would easily beat him, I have no idea.

With Nog vs Mir, Nog is better in every category, except promo cutting, but that's not going to help Frank when they fight. Nog's the better striker, has better cardio, more heart, can take punishment and has a better ground game.

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post #37 of 92 (permalink) Old 12-01-2008, 07:43 PM
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+Rep to the above 2 posters.

The only way Forrest was gonna win was to stuff his takedowns and outbox him for points and win a close decision. Nobody thought he would choke out Shogun and most didn't even think he would outbox him.

What I'm trying to say is, fighters don't always fight the exact same way. There are so many factors that play into a fight. Using past fights as a "sure-fire" way to predict an outcome to a future fight is impossible. It just simply doesn't work that way, not in this case anyway.

If we were sitting here trying to predict the outcome of say Cheick Kongo vs Nog, then it would make a little more sense to use past fights to try and predict this fight. You could say Cheick clearly has trouble with people who have good ground games and takedowns, in every single fight since he started MMA, and with Nogueira being great at both, yea chances are Nog is gonna win. But with Frank, you just have no idea. It's all speculation and opinion.

That said Nog is clearly the favorite but I just don't see how some of you can still be so lopsided in your predictions. It seems like you woulda learned your lesson by now with all the crazy upsets.
Saying that you don't see a way for a certain fighter to win and saying a certain fighter can't win are two completely different things. Every time I imagine how this fight will go down, I see Nog being better in every category. There is no aspect of the game where I can say "Mir has an advantage here". If Frank Mir were to win, I would be absolutely shocked. There would be no words to describe how surprised I'd be. But that doesn't mean I don't recognize the fact that this is a fight and that Mir does have a chance at winning. I'd probably say that chance is less than one percent, but it's there.
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post #38 of 92 (permalink) Old 12-01-2008, 07:58 PM
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I might bet on mir.
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post #39 of 92 (permalink) Old 12-01-2008, 09:17 PM
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No one is saying Mir can't win. I just don't see it happening at all. The last time I felt like that about a fight this big and was wrong was GSP vs Serra.

Yes Mir is explosive in his submissions but so are a ton of guys. I mean Lil Nogueira is IMO more explosive and techincal then Mir.
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post #40 of 92 (permalink) Old 12-01-2008, 09:29 PM
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The ground game had nothing to do with either of those losses though. He got rocked on his feet both times and got finished with strikes, and was clearly not ready to fight Cruz. Excuse or not that was a completely different fighter that night, you can't argue that because it was a year after his accident, not a year after his recovery, but his actual near fatal accident. And even if what your saying was true it still wouldn't matter. It only takes one win to change that. And the win is not gonna influenced at all by the fact that he has yet to beat a big name since Sylvia.

I dunno, I think it would make sense to say, if it goes past the first round, chances are Nog is gonna win. But that first round is gonna be all Frank, possibly even the 2nd if he's in shape for once, and he has proven many times now he can end a fight extremely quick and has really unorthadox and STRONG submissions.

I'd just be a lot more cautious about counting any fighter out based on things that don't even affect the outcome of a fight. That's just me though. Too many crazy upsets happening for me to keep doing that. Forrest didn't have any big wins for a while before facing Shogun. Now he's beaten Shogun AND Rampage in a row and holds the belt.
Are you forgetting that Nog is impossible to finish?> Your argument is that Mir is good at finishing people really quick... cool... but it's BIG NOG bud. Mir even said it himself he has to outwork him for the whole entire fight to win




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