Mir vs. Nog, I never thought about it this way. - Page 5 - MMA Forum - UFC Forums - UFC Results - MMA Videos
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Old 12-01-2008, 10:29 PM   #41 (permalink)
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I'm probably going to catch some heat for this, but bare with me and hear me out.

I keep reading unequivocally that Nog has the better ground game, and i think a distinction needs to be made. Nog has beaten better guys on the ground, but i don't think anyone can fairly say that he has a better ground game (yet). You can't prove that with anecdotal evidence alone.

There simply isn't enough evidence to support the fact that Nog beats Mir on the ground. Sure, he has more wins and has submitted top opponents, but Nog and Mir have had very different careers....with Mir basically getting cut down in his prime from the accident. Had that not happened, and Mir had stayed and defended his belt, theres no saying the quality of opponent he would have beaten. At the time, the dude was outright scary on the ground. Mir and Fedor have something in common (along with Andrei)....they're they only guys to submit Sylvia in extremely short order, and if we're talking about straight submissions, Mir was the only one of the three that did so while Big Tim had a clear head.

Mir has 11 wins with 7 subs, a high percentage of his wins. Nog has 31 wins with 19 subs, also a high percentage of his wins. Nogs resume is outright stellar, but he always wins with the same two things (armbars and triangles) with the odd anaconda or something. Mir literally beats dudes with all kinds of stuff (including shoulder locks and leg locks, something Nog just doesn't do).

Lets be real here. Mir came back and had the most terrible cardio outside of the MW division (Lutter), but it has been improving with each fight. I think the Cruz fight needs to be thrown out....we all know that wasn't Frank Mir that night. Hell, it wasn't Frank when he beat Dan either. Nog on the other hand has very good cardio. It hasn't looked as good recently, but i think the time off will have helped Nog heal and get fit again. If Mir really plans to try and outwork Nog, then i think he is in for a long night simply because i don't believe he could have improved it enough for him to do that for 5 rounds.

However, i really think that on the ground, with both guys not too tired....Franks grappling/submissions are every bit as good as Nog's, and at the least, i think he has better leg locks. "Thats ridiculous" im sure ill hear....but when you really look at it, Mir is a no bullshit legit black belt that straight up submits people; with a wide array of submissions no less. Nog is extremely good at what he does too, has better standup, and better cardio....which is why i have him as the favourite.

All that said, every time i think about this fight, (twice now) i have thought of a way for Mir to win. Nog fans shouldn't be so complacent, Mir is absolutely good enough to put Nog in danger, especially with Nog being at the back side of his career (I love the guy too, but he clearly peaked in 2004-05).

I'm really looking forward to this fight. I think it's going to be great, and I'm happy to see either guy win because i like them both. Nog, because the guy is just an outright legend of the sport. Mir, because no one is giving him a chance, and he has the opportunity to get back something that he never lost.

It's gonna be fun
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Last edited by Flak : 12-01-2008 at 10:31 PM.
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Old 12-01-2008, 10:34 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I'm just wondering and I'm sure you wil give me the generic MMA grappling vs BJJ grappling but why if Mir's submissions are so great did he do nothing against Babalu in 15 minutes when they had a grappling match?
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Old 12-01-2008, 10:36 PM   #43 (permalink)
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this is going to be a great fight
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Old 12-01-2008, 10:52 PM   #44 (permalink)
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I'm just wondering and I'm sure you wil give me the generic MMA grappling vs BJJ grappling but why if Mir's submissions are so great did he do nothing against Babalu in 15 minutes when they had a grappling match?
Straw man.

But i'll bite.....because his cardio was terrible at that point and Babalu is a very accomplished grappler in his own right.
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Old 12-01-2008, 10:56 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Is there any evidence to suggest Mir's cardio has improved?
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Old 12-01-2008, 10:58 PM   #46 (permalink)
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So In the two monts between that match and Hardonk he improved his cardio? Babalu is a lesser grappler then Nogueira.

Mir hasn't shown improved cardio since then. He is explosive but he IMO is the most overrated HW in the world.
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Old 12-01-2008, 11:00 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Kind of. He looked more in shape the last couple of fights, and has openly discussed his lack of cardio and efforts to improve it. Plus, although his last two wins ended quickly....he didn't appear gassed at all like he did against Cruz after the first minute. I don't think you can argue that a grappling match is any easier than an MMA one. IF anything, in terms of fitness, i think you need to be much fitter to grind for position that long in grappling....so i think it's a bad example. Yeah, grappling and MMA grappling are entirely different. We all know this, and so do you.

Mir can't win this on cardio though. Even if he has improved it 200%, that will only get him 3 rounds, and i think Nog is good for 5.
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Last edited by Flak : 12-01-2008 at 11:03 PM.
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Old 12-01-2008, 11:09 PM   #48 (permalink)
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See but Mir's biggest point for him winning is that he subbed Traven so if MMA grappling and BJJ are different then that win loses a lot of value.

Mir's submissions are basically over a majority of scrubs, Sylvia who admitted his sub defense sucked at that point, Traven and Pete Williams.
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Old 12-01-2008, 11:20 PM   #49 (permalink)
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I think Mir's biggest case for winning is that he looks to have continued to work on his grappling and evolved his game, while Nog has not. Does Nog even enter straight grappling matches?

Mir lost on points to babalu, but that could have been for any number of reasons. Hell, maybe the guy just had a bad night, maybe bablu is a better grappler than MMA fighter...who knows. In the octagon though, he has serious skills, and i think this forum needs to acknowledge that.

No one is saying Mir will win (well, im not anyway), but there ARE ways for it to theoretically happen. I think Mir will gas and Nog will win by sub or UD....but in the early rounds i think it will be close.
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Old 12-01-2008, 11:22 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Mir has some solid submission skills that's it. He is dangerous to guys who don't have very good MMA grappling but his striking sucks, his wrestling as well.

And his cardio is terrible.
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