Joe Stevenson Fight Versus Mishima - Was It Shady? - Page 5 - MMA Forum - UFC Forums - UFC Results - MMA Videos
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post #41 of 59 (permalink) Old 11-20-2006, 09:08 PM
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I think the line jump can be explained. It went from -250 to -285 five minutes before the fight. It doesn't mean someone of a few people place really big bets, it could also mean alot of people placed bets on Joe right before the fight. Does anyone know if vegas sports books have a limit amount you can bet on MMA? My internet betting sight has a $300.00 max so it would take many small bets to get the number up.
Also, the majority of bets were placed by casual fans because the large majority of MMA fans are casual. Forget that you know Mishima trained 14 mos. for this fight because he was dissappointed with his last win. Forget the highlight you watched, forget that you think TUF fighters suck.....etc. When you look at the bets available that night, what bet would look more appealing to the casual fan. A TUF champion at -250 against another asian fighter destined to get pummelled in the octagon. I mean, do you remember the last asian fighter making his "debut in the octagon!" that won? I don't. That was easily the most attractive bet of the night to the large majority of the audience based on the line and the fighters.

However, Mishima owes the MMA community an explanation. There is a big difference between a quality fighter getting caught by a KO punch and getting caught in a basic choke.

The guy loves to entertain the crowd in Japan and they love him. For all I know, he came out in his get up and heard the boos and was like **** these assholes and just didn't perform for them. I don't know but I have to agree that I have never suspected a fight of being fixed before but I need a satisfactory explanation on that one.

As for Hughes v. GSP, no way in a million years was that fixed. Hughes looked like shit when he stood up with BJ yet he did it anyway for a while. GSP has dominated many people and it is no shock that since Hughes was stupid enough to keep it standing he got KTFO. Every fight you add to the "W" column decreases the odds that your next fight will be a "W" because everyone eventually loses. GSP is a dominating striker. Hughes got his ass whipped, I don't think he will make the same mistake in a rematch, but I don't see one iota of conspiracy in that fight.

And I hate that I do in Mishima but sorry, UFC, someone needs to explain what the **** happened in that fight.
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post #42 of 59 (permalink) Old 11-20-2006, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halebop
I think the line jump can be explained. It went from -250 to -285 five minutes before the fight. It doesn't mean someone of a few people place really big bets, it could also mean alot of people placed bets on Joe right before the fight. Does anyone know if vegas sports books have a limit amount you can bet on MMA? My internet betting sight has a $300.00 max so it would take many small bets to get the number up.
Also, the majority of bets were placed by casual fans because the large majority of MMA fans are casual. Forget that you know Mishima trained 14 mos. for this fight because he was dissappointed with his last win. Forget the highlight you watched, forget that you think TUF fighters suck.....etc. When you look at the bets available that night, what bet would look more appealing to the casual fan. A TUF champion at -250 against another asian fighter destined to get pummelled in the octagon. I mean, do you remember the last asian fighter making his "debut in the octagon!" that won? I don't. That was easily the most attractive bet of the night to the large majority of the audience based on the line and the fighters.

However, Mishima owes the MMA community an explanation. There is a big difference between a quality fighter getting caught by a KO punch and getting caught in a basic choke.

The guy loves to entertain the crowd in Japan and they love him. For all I know, he came out in his get up and heard the boos and was like **** these assholes and just didn't perform for them. I don't know but I have to agree that I have never suspected a fight of being fixed before but I need a satisfactory explanation on that one.

As for Hughes v. GSP, no way in a million years was that fixed. Hughes looked like shit when he stood up with BJ yet he did it anyway for a while. GSP has dominated many people and it is no shock that since Hughes was stupid enough to keep it standing he got KTFO. Every fight you add to the "W" column decreases the odds that your next fight will be a "W" because everyone eventually loses. GSP is a dominating striker. Hughes got his ass whipped, I don't think he will make the same mistake in a rematch, but I don't see one iota of conspiracy in that fight.

And I hate that I do in Mishima but sorry, UFC, someone needs to explain what the **** happened in that fight.
Good post, but I can't tell if you are trying to prove the Mishima theory wrong or just prove it more correct. I wouldn't think it would matter if it was one big bet or a bunch of small ones, either way the payout went up 35 cents per dollar which is insane. I don't wanna take anything away from Joe, I like him, he is a beast of a fighter at 155, but you're right, we need an explanation.
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post #43 of 59 (permalink) Old 11-20-2006, 10:19 PM
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I should have made that clear when I was on my soapbox. IMO the jump in the bet line is explanable and I would need more proof to be suspicious.

Mishima's performance is another story and I need an explanation before I believe he gave a legitimate performance.

As much as I don't want to believe it, I can't lie to myself and say the fight looked legit. But I am very open to a good explanation and hope there is one. I believe that Mishima just didn't try more then I believe it was fixed because I don't see anything suspicious with the line jump and there is no reason to fix a fight if not for the betting.

Last edited by Halebop; 11-20-2006 at 10:21 PM.
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post #44 of 59 (permalink) Old 11-20-2006, 10:21 PM
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I still don't understand why you guys think the UNDERDOG threw the fight for betting's sake. when you bet almost $300 on stevenson and get $100 in return doesn't really make it overly profitable for the ufc or the fighters to stake their reputation on the favorite. usually when somebody throws a fight, it's the underdog winning not losing. and once again, stevenson was the favorite.

you don't see the NY Yankees playing a tee ball team, winning and everybody making a lot of money. the yankees would have to throw the game and people would make a lot betting on the tee ball team.
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post #45 of 59 (permalink) Old 11-20-2006, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayhush
I still don't understand why you guys think the UNDERDOG threw the fight for betting's sake. when you bet almost $300 on stevenson and get $100 in return doesn't really make it overly profitable for the ufc or the fighters to stake their reputation on the favorite. usually when somebody throws a fight, it's the underdog winning not losing. and once again, stevenson was the favorite.

you don't see the NY Yankees playing a tee ball team, winning and everybody making a lot of money. the yankees would have to throw the game and people would make a lot betting on the tee ball team.
My gym is going to close on my if I stay here and correct everything that is wrong with this post.....

"You don't see the NY Y play a tee ball team winning and making alot of money."
Yes, you do, legitimately. Also, Joe v. Mishima is not analogous to NYY v. Tee Ball team.

The consipiracy is that Underdog or associates bet on the opponent and then the underdog goes in and loses and gets a cut. I like to think MMA fighters are too honorable for that but these guys only make about 6,000 - 10,000. When other organizations are paying 10x that amount you may resent what the UFC pays and say Fuick em. I'm going to get paid.
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post #46 of 59 (permalink) Old 11-21-2006, 04:59 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayhush
I still don't understand why you guys think the UNDERDOG threw the fight for betting's sake. when you bet almost $300 on stevenson and get $100 in return doesn't really make it overly profitable for the ufc or the fighters to stake their reputation on the favorite. usually when somebody throws a fight, it's the underdog winning not losing. and once again, stevenson was the favorite.

you don't see the NY Yankees playing a tee ball team, winning and everybody making a lot of money. the yankees would have to throw the game and people would make a lot betting on the tee ball team.
U obviosely don't understand these things, There are a lot of variables at play. The big one bieng, what fighter would be more receptive to the idea? Also just cause your the favorite doese not mean u will win, The Yanks lose 3-4 games to the D-Rays every year, Pulver was 7-1 when he got KO'd(I don't think that was fixed). Look at the NFL every week, upsets, upsets, upsets. It does'nt matter if the return is'nt as good, u bet 500k u win 200k. and I'm sure u don't place it all at once, spread it out around. 5-6 casinos

I am NOT saying the UFC is fixed, or TUF fighters suck(I like TUF) or that Mashima is great(1st time I have seen him fight). I'm saying he looked like a boxer taking a fall from a weak jab.

The line jump alone doese not make me believe the fight was fixed. That coupled with him trying to be choked out does. Guys who step into the Octogon for the first time doent get submitted that easy.

I am allowed to bet my max bet on the UFC, the same as Football or anything else. Not sure what Vegas caps it at but it is way higher then 300$.

Lot's of sporting events are fixed, the thing is 99.9% of the time they don't get caught, and all we can do is wonder.

Last edited by Robb2140; 11-21-2006 at 05:03 PM.
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post #47 of 59 (permalink) Old 11-22-2006, 12:06 AM
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Not that they 'should have won', but the entrance and performance of Rich and Matt were just so off their previous performance. And Mishima, if you watch some of the YouTube clips is a not a tuck and fold fighter. He knows ground work and he can hold his own on his feet. Tucking and getting folded up in 4 attempts is just somehow wrong.

I'm seriously thinking the UFC is spiking the 'losers' Xy with Horse Tranq's.
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post #48 of 59 (permalink) Old 11-22-2006, 01:02 AM
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I don't think anyone should imply that the UFC fixes fights. The fighters may do it for selfish reasons but the UFC doesn't fix shit. MMA betting has not reached a level in the USA where it is profitable enough to offer the UFC the kind of money it would take to convince a UFC official to risk criminal prosecution and the loss of the blazing hot revenue the UFC is generating. Fighters are a different story but there needs to be substantial proof before it is really analyzed. I think there is that kind of proof in the Mishima fight, I need an explanation on that one. In the mean time, I think that if you see fixes happening "often" or in Main Events, you are fuicking stupid. Before you go searching for clues at the Vatican, slow your roll and ask who benefits and what is the risk in fixing a fight. The benefit($$$) must be outweigh the risk (in UFC case $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$) Fighters want sponsors. Sponsors want winners. Sponsors pay fighters without the risk of being banned from MMA. 99% of MMA fighters do not fit the mold of someone looking to take a dive. I don't know about an aging star from Japan, he may want a payday away from the hometown fans in the twilight of his career. I dunno, but that is what I will assume when I see a finish like that. This is not 1930's Chicago and Dana White is not a wiseguy.

If you watch fights looking for something to justify that fights are fixed, I bet every fight probably looks a little suspicious....especially Rich Franklin and Matt Hughes last fights. ( I mean c'mon, weren't they coaches on TUF?????)
end sarcasm. If you think that the large majority of fights in the UFC are fixed, you are a fuciking retard. There is nothing behind Franklin v. Silva, Silva is a great fighter, Rich is a great fighter, but if it is a shock to you that Silva could beat Franklin like that, go educate yourself with some internet highlights. How likely was it that it would happen? Who the fuick cares, it was easily possible that it would happen and it did. If Franklin gets a rematch and beats Silva, it is not a conspiracy, it is possible. Matt Hughes did try against GSP. GSP could not be a worse match up for Hughes and it showed. If he had gone for a shoot earlier in the match and gotten KTFO quicker then he did, would that be "trying"? If you are shocked that GSP could beat Hughes that way, you don't need to be watching fights to see if they are fixed, you need to be watching fights to learn about the sport.

A groan of tedium escapes me...

Last edited by Halebop; 11-22-2006 at 01:20 AM.
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post #49 of 59 (permalink) Old 11-22-2006, 03:16 AM
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OK, heres my take. I don't think it was fixed. If Mishima was going to lose on purpose he would have tapped during the first guillotine.

I also happen to agree with the poster who suggested that it is not logical for an underdog to lose on purpose.

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post #50 of 59 (permalink) Old 11-22-2006, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by theboz19
OK, heres my take. I don't think it was fixed. If Mishima was going to lose on purpose he would have tapped during the first guillotine.
It looks suspicious enough on the 4th try, can you imagine how bad it would have looked if he just ran across, tackled into the choke and just tapped?

A groan of tedium escapes me...
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