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Old 10-13-2009, 11:11 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Hammerlock2.0 View Post
The guy with the Aoki avatar whose name I forgot said it in another thread and I agree with him: a sub attempt is the equivalent of rocking somebody and should be counted as such. I'm not talking about the 'I touched your arm for a second, so it's a kimura attempt', but the really tight ones as seen in the Cerrone/Henderson fight. If you don't score a good submission attempt like a good strike that rocked your opponent the whole system is just not fair for BJJ guys.
I completely agree. If you're in a tight submission, you're literally seconds and inches away from losing the fight -- much like if you're rocked. I agree that not every sub attempt should be scored as that, but ones that are very deep and require a lot of work to get out of deserve to be weighed like a strike that rocked somebody.

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Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
No, takedowns are very valuable and should be weighted heavily in scoring. IMO it all comes down to the roots of MMA... essentially, MMA was designed to be the closest thing to real combat. In the beginning, there was no judging or time limit, no standups, and a whole lot more things you could do to a guy once you took him down. In such a situation, as in a real fight, the guy on top is at a heavy advantage. I mean if you get taken down on the streets and don't have buddies around, you're ****ed pretty bad even with subs ... the guy can hit so many cheap spots, you're pretty much done.
As MMA evolved, time limits and judging were introduced, and more and more areas were made off limits. Now if you got mounted, you could just turn over, and voila, you're magically protected from punches to the back of the head, neck, or spine, by the rules. This kind of thing would get you killed in real combat. Or some dude could have you in side control, but you could chill out and catch your breath, maybe even "be active" from that position because the guy on top isn't allowed to knee you in the head anymore, or stand up and stomp etc. This kinda thing would never work with old rules or in real fighting.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad MMA evolved and became a safer sport... I don't think I would've ever trained it if it meant getting my nuts smashed and never having kids. But I think the scoring should continue to reflect how effective something would be in the absence of all these restrictions. Takedowns SHOULD score huge, because in the absence of all these restrictions and standups, a guy on top could've done a ton of damage. It shouldn't automatically give you the win or be overweighted, but the current scoring system is fine. And they should definitely be scored more than sub "attempts" .. because a sub attempt is just that, something attempted and failed. If you land a sub, great... but the restrictive rules on striking only allow you to take ridiculous unrealistic risks with subs anyway, you shouldn't be rewarded for essentially failing.
My whole take on judging is that if MMA gets too far removed from it's roots and becomes completely unrealistic, it goes the direction of boxing and becomes a pointless boring endeavor. A couple of dudes that throw one punch an hour from behind giant pillows and then hug each other for an hour as soon as the other guy throws. This rule based drag is not what Boxing was meant to be, it was meant to be something that could actually work to some extent in real life, a "combat" sport and not just a sport for it's own sake.
You have a pretty fair and valid argument, but I disagree with the bolded sections.

Maybe its just the Bullshido Bully in me, but it to say that a competent groundfighter would be absolutely screwed in a real fight just because he's on the bottom seems like absolute fallacy to me. While some things definitely do change without rules, there's no reason that solid grappling won't let you escape from bottom or tear a guy's arm off.

As for the second piece, that would make sense if not for the fact that rocking somebody gives you major points. Are those points awarded just for failing to put somebody away?
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Old 10-13-2009, 11:27 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SuicideJohnson View Post
Totally, and not just in the UFC. The other day, at WEC 43, I thought the Crunkilton - Jensen fight was a perfect example of takedowns alone winning a fight. There are people on here who can give you a way better response than me though because I'm on my way out, but in my opinion, YES THEY ARE OVERVALUED. I say defending a takedown should be equally as valuable at least, after all, you are dictating where the fight is taking place.
I agree. The crunkilton fight and the cerrone - henderson fight from WEC 43 are what prompted me to make this thread.

The cerrone-hendersen fight was absolutely amazing, spectacular fight, but absolutely atrocious bullshit decision in my humble opinion.


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Originally Posted by Hammerlock2.0 View Post
The guy with the Aoki avatar whose name I forgot said it in another thread and I agree with him: a sub attempt is the equivalent of rocking somebody and should be counted as such. I'm not talking about the 'I touched your arm for a second, so it's a kimura attempt', but the really tight ones as seen in the Cerrone/Henderson fight. If you don't score a good submission attempt like a good strike that rocked your opponent the whole system is just not fair for BJJ guys.
I also completely agree with this.

i think people need to differentiate between a sub attempt and an actual sub that is locked up but does not finish the fight.

sub attempt that is easily slipped out of = not worth much
sub that is locked in and close to finishing the fight, but does not actually end the match = shud be worth more then a takedown, definitely.

in my opinion.

double post sorry plz delete
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Old 10-13-2009, 11:53 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MooJuice View Post
I agree. The crunkilton fight and the cerrone - henderson fight from WEC 43 are what prompted me to make this thread.

The cerrone-hendersen fight was absolutely amazing, spectacular fight, but absolutely atrocious bullshit decision in my humble opinion.




I also completely agree with this.

i think people need to differentiate between a sub attempt and an actual sub that is locked up but does not finish the fight.

sub attempt that is easily slipped out of = not worth much
sub that is locked in and close to finishing the fight, but does not actually end the match = shud be worth more then a takedown, definitely.

in my opinion.
I don't have a problem with this, but this moves into the ground being covered on your other post about scoring. If you agree that MMA is harder to score than boxing, and has trouble getting competant judges and refs, which a lot of people would agree with, then anything that makes the rules even more subjective is going to cause problems.

I think this falls into that category, it's a nice idea, but it would make life even harder for the judges and refs, and they have it much tougher than boxing already.

It would be very difficult to judge what is a serious, almost successful submission from one that is easily shrugged off. This is why takedowns and a hard shot to the chin are scored higher, they are obvious and easy to see the results of. It's too bad for ground fighters, but this is why it's better to be a good wrestler in mma than anything else, because it's easy to see and judge when you are successful.
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Old 10-13-2009, 03:56 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mmamasta View Post
No, I don't think you should get credit for a takedown attempt. And no, I don't think you should get credit for EVERY weak sub attempt. But, I think it goes without saying that an oma-plata that's really tight early on in a fight can mess up a fighter's shoulder for the remainder of the fight. When it comes down to it, close submission attempts are far more dangerous than lay'n'pray takedowns, and should be scored as such.

I'm not asking for bjj to be scored more heavily than wrestling, just equally. I think mma scoring needs to get closer to what is more damaging, dangerous, and threatening, and try to get away from the positioning/points battle it is (because THATS why alot of used-to-be boxing fans are mma fans, myself included)
I would agree with this. Sub attempts that come close to finishing a fight should be scored as much as a take down. I don't think fighting off your back is rewarded enough but then again, most BJJ guys would rather be on top anyway. The other thing to consider is that most of the time when a fighter pulls guard it's because they are being beaten in the stand up.

My issue with the "lay and pray" argument comes more from the fact that the first real evolution in MMA came from powerful wrestlers being able to negate BJJ guys by controlling them on the ground. This really led to guys having to be well rounded and learn stand up / take down defence as well as the ground game to be successful. It's just not smart to take a lot of risks if you are fighting someone that can submit you if you make one mistake. It doesn't lead to an exciting fight however. I just don't think it's fair to punish someone that is controlling the other fighter on the ground and force them to be more aggressive and leave themselves open to being submitted. I would like to see more fights stood up when there is an obvious stale mate. I think more stand ups would go a long way to solving a lot of the problem.

Also, I think the term "lay and pray" is one of the most overused things in MMA. A lot of the time it's used to describe a fight where the fighter that you wanted to win was totally controlled on the ground regardless of whether or not it actually was LnP.
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Old 10-13-2009, 04:34 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
No, takedowns are very valuable and should be weighted heavily in scoring. IMO it all comes down to the roots of MMA... essentially, MMA was designed to be the closest thing to real combat. In the beginning, there was no judging or time limit, no standups, and a whole lot more things you could do to a guy once you took him down. In such a situation, as in a real fight, the guy on top is at a heavy advantage. I mean if you get taken down on the streets and don't have buddies around, you're ****ed pretty bad even with subs ... the guy can hit so many cheap spots, you're pretty much done.

As MMA evolved, time limits and judging were introduced, and more and more areas were made off limits. Now if you got mounted, you could just turn over, and voila, you're magically protected from punches to the back of the head, neck, or spine, by the rules. This kind of thing would get you killed in real combat. Or some dude could have you in side control, but you could chill out and catch your breath, maybe even "be active" from that position because the guy on top isn't allowed to knee you in the head anymore, or stand up and stomp etc. This kinda thing would never work with old rules or in real fighting.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad MMA evolved and became a safer sport... I don't think I would've ever trained it if it meant getting my nuts smashed and never having kids. But I think the scoring should continue to reflect how effective something would be in the absence of all these restrictions. Takedowns SHOULD score huge, because in the absence of all these restrictions and standups, a guy on top could've done a ton of damage. It shouldn't automatically give you the win or be overweighted, but the current scoring system is fine. And they should definitely be scored more than sub "attempts" .. because a sub attempt is just that, something attempted and failed. If you land a sub, great... but the restrictive rules on striking only allow you to take ridiculous unrealistic risks with subs anyway, you shouldn't be rewarded for essentially failing.

My whole take on judging is that if MMA gets too far removed from it's roots and becomes completely unrealistic, it goes the direction of boxing and becomes a pointless boring endeavor. A couple of dudes that throw one punch an hour from behind giant pillows and then hug each other for an hour as soon as the other guy throws. This rule based drag is not what Boxing was meant to be, it was meant to be something that could actually work to some extent in real life, a "combat" sport and not just a sport for it's own sake.
You make some great points here. Its true that the restrictions on what is legal on the ground significantly limit the value of a takedown. Also, if you are making comparisons to a street fight, most surfaces in the world aren't canvas mats and slamming somebody onto a hard surface can be debilitating. If a fighter can't defend a takedown, or do anything from his back, he shouldn't complain about 'lay and pray'

However, I think the fighter on top has to prove that he is capable of the damage that is purportedly possible from that position, and shouldn't be credited for something he hasn't done. In fairness, submission attempts shouldn't be scored either according to this ethic, by way of the fact that you give credit for something that hasn't been accomplished. I do think they should be part of the weighting in case of a draw.

I think you need to consider the difference between full guard and the positions you mention (on the belly, or side control). The points you make about the rules to protect a fighter are pretty incontrivertible in the way they devalue a takedown. (Knees to the head on the ground should be legal imo). But there is a difference between a fighter scoring takedowns defensively (to avoid the standup), staying in the full guard, as opposed to fighters who use the takedown as a platform for leveraged striking, submission attempts, or even more dominant positions.

You shouldn't be credited for anything if a takedown leads to no advancement of position or damage, unless you can show me some outlawed techniques from full guard which are devastating.

Towards the point made towards the principle of simulating a real fight. How do you judge submission attempts that are cut off by the end of the round? I mean these are fight ending scenarios that are ruined by the arbitrariness of the clock. Not to mention fighters being rocked or in danger of a striking flurry.

Also, the problems with pointed takedowns now is that sometimes they lead precisely to the 'point scoring' fighting you are so wary off. For example Chuck Liddell getting the takedown in the Silva fight and standing up again immediately. This is a concious exploitation of the judging system in order to solidify a round.
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Old 10-13-2009, 08:34 PM   #26 (permalink)
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lol, can we just send this thread to someone to change the rules? I feel like every valid point against the current td-heavy scoring system has been expostulated in the thread. And, although this is a UFC thread, I find it a common theme in the majority of dissapointing mma matches.

The only thing that I think wasn't talked about enough in this thread was standing fighters up. I think the die-hard in all of us wants to say "No stand-ups! Fight out of it, it's a fight, otherwise the other guy beats you, fair and square." But I think something everyone needs to keep in mind (including me), is although we always refer to mma as "fights", they're not. They are mixed martial arts matches. Because, lets be honest, the best fighting style for a bar/street fight is to kick him in the balls, or headbutt him, period. Someone willing to fight dirty is going to beat a blackbelt bjj, and a championship kickboxer, and a D1 wrestler, every time. That's what we have the sport of mixed martial arts for.

I think stand-ups should be much more frequent, if either fighter isn't doing a significant amount of damage, stand them up. As we've all discussed, as is, incredible wrestlers almost don't need to work on the other aspects of their game as much because if they can focus enough on the wrestling, and pin them (the goal in a WRESTLING match, not MMA), they win. If the refs took that out of their hands and said "no, wrestler, you have to learn how to punch, and submit guys, so stand up", I think we would've seen some really good wrestlers turn into incredible fighters. Can you imagine what kind of force Hughes would've been if he had spend HALF as much training on the other aspects of his game besides just wrestling?!
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Old 10-13-2009, 08:38 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Hell ya, takedowns are way overvalued in the UFC. And TD defense is severely undervalued.
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Old 10-13-2009, 10:54 PM   #28 (permalink)
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It is hard to score sub attempts....there really isn't a comparison to striking because you can get struck with a jab or some leg kicks or whatever and while it may not do damage, it get's you points. Take downs also don't really do damage (unless you are Rampage) but get your points....sub's seem to be all or nothing for the most part. You don't see someone land 3 or 4 subs in a round like you could TD's or decent strikes.

I do agree w/ TD's being overrated, or at least the LnP type of guys that just go for control and not really attempting to finish.

Also, I don't think judging should try to keep it on par with respects to 'street' or 'real' fighting....seperate animals.
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Old 10-14-2009, 01:23 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mmamasta View Post
lol, can we just send this thread to someone to change the rules? I feel like every valid point against the current td-heavy scoring system has been expostulated in the thread. And, although this is a UFC thread, I find it a common theme in the majority of dissapointing mma matches.

The only thing that I think wasn't talked about enough in this thread was standing fighters up. I think the die-hard in all of us wants to say "No stand-ups! Fight out of it, it's a fight, otherwise the other guy beats you, fair and square." But I think something everyone needs to keep in mind (including me), is although we always refer to mma as "fights", they're not. They are mixed martial arts matches. Because, lets be honest, the best fighting style for a bar/street fight is to kick him in the balls, or headbutt him, period. Someone willing to fight dirty is going to beat a blackbelt bjj, and a championship kickboxer, and a D1 wrestler, every time. That's what we have the sport of mixed martial arts for.
I think stand-ups should be much more frequent, if either fighter isn't doing a significant amount of damage, stand them up. As we've all discussed, as is, incredible wrestlers almost don't need to work on the other aspects of their game as much because if they can focus enough on the wrestling, and pin them (the goal in a WRESTLING match, not MMA), they win. If the refs took that out of their hands and said "no, wrestler, you have to learn how to punch, and submit guys, so stand up", I think we would've seen some really good wrestlers turn into incredible fighters. Can you imagine what kind of force Hughes would've been if he had spend HALF as much training on the other aspects of his game besides just wrestling?!
That is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. I mean, even if we completely disregard the early UFCs where headbutting and groin shots were legal, the notion that you're proposing is absurd. Are you telling me that if you fought with Anderson Silva, you'd be able to headbutt him or kick him in the balls? Even though you probably couldn't even land a jab on him, you'd get him in the balls. Right.

The things that you're talking about aren't even guaranteed fight enders. I'm definitely not above kicking a guy square in the nuts in a real fight, and I've done it. That said, I was rather disappointed when the guy didn't give a crap and kept coming at me.

A knife or a gun would probably beat a trained fighter 90 percent of the time. A headbutt or kick to the nads? Get real.
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Old 10-14-2009, 03:25 AM   #30 (permalink)
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I agree completly, 10-8 rounds given regularly for dominant striking or constant submission attempts would balance out the effectiveness of Lay and Pray as if they lose 1 round badly due to strikes you have to try and finish. The only problem would be a huge amount of draws.

At the end of the day, wrestling is very effective. If you want to be a top level MMA fighter then you have to have great wrestling, or at least good wrestling with striking and submissions skills that compliment this.

I have no real issues with the current system.
Thats the real problem IMO. The striker can win a round pretty convincingly and inflict a good amount of damage, but it has to be a very dominant performance to get a 10-8. Then the wrestler can grind out the last 2 rounds on the ground, doing just enough to keep it from being instantly stood up, and doing minimal damage.
The wrestler wins 2 of 3 rounds but has a broken nose, is bloody, and has taken more damage.

Or what about the fights where the two fighters feel each other out for the first round and barely anything happens? One guy will get credit for winning that round because he landed a few more shots or just because he pushed the pace a bit more. That 10-9 round is worth as much as the 10-9 round later on, that is much more decisive, but still not dominating enough to be considered a 10-8 under the current rules.

I never understood why they called it a "10 point" system when they really only use 7,8,9,and 10. I mean, can you really have a 10-6 or 10-5 round in mma without a referee stoppage? Maybe it wouldnt be a bad idea to consider lowering the bar for what it takes to get multiple point round. And 10-10 rounds should be much more common IMO.
IMO the only reason to break a fight up into rounds is to give the fighters a breather so that they can be more explosive and entertaining, I dont like the idea of scoring it like 3 seperate matches that you either win or lose.


All that said, gaining top position and being able to control the fight should definitely be valued highly. As long as the refs do a good job recognizing stalling and stalemates and stand it up then it isnt a huge problem IMO. The refs have gotten better, they give the wrestler plenty of opportunity to use his dominant position to finish the fight. If the wrestler doesnt end up making real progress then he'll stand them up, and he wont give the wrestler as much time on the following TDs. If the wrestler can continue to get TDs for the rest of the fight and grind out a decision then he is the better mixed martial artist and deserves to win.

Bottom line, grappling/octagon control/aggression should count, but not nearly as much as damage or near submissions, it should only really count when the difference of damage inflicted is neglidgable. If you are on top and getting elbowed and nearly submitted without inflicting comparable damage then you are losing the fight.
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