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Old 10-12-2009, 03:56 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Takedowns overvalued in UFC?

I'd like to hear peoples opinions on whether takedowns are worth too much within the current UFC scoring system; especially if the takedown results in hardly any damage or position improvement etc. I personally think they are way overvalued, especially the takedowns whereby they just lay there until the bottom guy manages to get back up.

A guy who executes 3 or 4 of those lay-n-do-jackshit takedowns should not be the one to win the round if his opponent is dominating the striking and going for submission after submission, in my opinion.

it just doesnt make sense, and yet i've seen this exact sort of judging happen in a fair few fights over the last few months.

I just personally hate it; it gets on my nerves to see fighters who have put so much effort into skillful striking and submissions lose fights to guys who do hardly as much damage but just keep taking them down...I know takedown defense is the answer but it still annoys me.

Anyway it's been bugging me for a while now so i'd like to hear what the educated posters on MMAforum have to say on the matter.
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Old 10-12-2009, 04:34 PM   #2 (permalink)
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A take down will always be worth more than getting taken down, that is really all that matters in a scoring system.

I do feel that a takedown should only count for points if it is a clean takedown such as a crisp double/single-leg or a hip toss. My idea of a solid takedown is one that not only give you an advantagous position but also does damage (knocking the wind out of your opponent or worse)

Some judges still get hung up on the top position being a dominant position in a fight which is why we see the desperate continual takedowns from some of the fighters hoping to ride out a win. The active position should be gaining points, without regard to if it is top or bottom position. Top position should not equal octagon control.
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Old 10-12-2009, 04:36 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Totally, and not just in the UFC. The other day, at WEC 43, I thought the Crunkilton - Jensen fight was a perfect example of takedowns alone winning a fight. There are people on here who can give you a way better response than me though because I'm on my way out, but in my opinion, YES THEY ARE OVERVALUED. I say defending a takedown should be equally as valuable at least, after all, you are dictating where the fight is taking place.
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Old 10-12-2009, 05:25 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Takedowns shouldn't count for anything (except for slams or big throws). That's my opinion. Taking somebody down is basically the exact same thing as defending a takedown. You try to dictate where the fight is going to taking place. It's what you make of the takedown that counts. I don't really blame the judges though, I blame the system. In my view the old PRIDE or the DREAM judging system is better suited for MMA than the 10 point must system. Either that or 10-8 rounds have to be given more often.
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Old 10-12-2009, 05:28 PM   #5 (permalink)
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The best example of takedowns and top control being given to much value is the Condit/Kampmann fight. Condit was ten times more active, but he lost the fight because Kampmann had top control for most of the fight. Terrible decision.
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Old 10-12-2009, 05:39 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Hammerlock2.0 View Post
Takedowns shouldn't count for anything (except for slams or big throws). That's my opinion. Taking somebody down is basically the exact same thing as defending a takedown. You try to dictate where the fight is going to taking place. It's what you make of the takedown that counts. I don't really blame the judges though, I blame the system. In my view the old PRIDE or the DREAM judging system is better suited for MMA than the 10 point must system. Either that or 10-8 rounds have to be given more often.
I agree completly, 10-8 rounds given regularly for dominant striking or constant submission attempts would balance out the effectiveness of Lay and Pray as if they lose 1 round badly due to strikes you have to try and finish. The only problem would be a huge amount of draws.

At the end of the day, wrestling is very effective. If you want to be a top level MMA fighter then you have to have great wrestling, or at least good wrestling with striking and submissions skills that compliment this.

I have no real issues with the current system.
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Old 10-12-2009, 05:55 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I do think takedowns are a little overvalued.

I would love to see submission attempts and reversals value a lot higher, then you would see fighters always looking for submissions, which I think would make the ground game much more spectator friendly to the untrained eye.
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Old 10-12-2009, 09:00 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I think takedowns are a little overrated, but why not look at the flip side of the coin? Takedown defense is undervalued. No one likes to see a guy win a fight by lay n pray, but the bottom line is, someone who can take you down multiple times is controlling the fight, and where the fight goes, even if they are not doing much damage. It is imperative that a successful fighter be able to control the fights location, and if he can't, he isn't successful.

Someone like Liddell is a guy who relied a lot on outsriking guys, he was a bit one dimensional, but he was a champion. He got away with it because his takedown defence was really good. (Then people figured out how to outstrike him and he got old fast) Then look at a guy like Houston Alexander. Strong and a very good striker, but his ground game and takedown defence are useless, so the result is, he is virtually a can. Matt Hughes is another good example, he sucked balls at striking, but won the takedown game bigtime, so he was a dominant fighter.

If you can't take someone down, you better be able to stop them from doing it to you, it is probably the single most important aspect of MMA. I hate lay n pray as much as the next guy, but either defend the takedown or lose, it's that simple. If a fighter can't defend it, he's not good enough at a crucial aspect of MMA.
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Old 10-12-2009, 09:08 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I hope this isn't too off-topic, because I completely agree with you, but I almost think it's too much about positioning too.

Meaning, not just after the TD, but they are still getting credit for the BS LnP. After I watched the Cerrone fight, it was really solidified in my mind. Obviously this is made more apparent in that fight because Cowboy was also throwing Sub attempt after sub attempt, which were all dangerous.

I think that the wrestlers should get credit for a TD. But, I think the judges need to realize that alot of guys that use bjj in mma use it from their backs too. And imo a decent sub attempt should equal a decent TD. Via the current rules in mma, an incredible wrestler, can out-score an incredibly well-rounded mixed martial artist. I think this goes against the fundamental concepts of the sport.

If the judges scored sub attempts and TDs the same, and realized that some people are more dangerous off their backs (i.e. the TONS of people in pro and am mma that pull guard), then wrestlers would be forced to do more damage, and take bigger chances, and the fans would get a better fight.

I've obviously been frustrated about this for a while.
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Old 10-12-2009, 10:12 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mmamasta View Post
I hope this isn't too off-topic, because I completely agree with you, but I almost think it's too much about positioning too.

Meaning, not just after the TD, but they are still getting credit for the BS LnP. After I watched the Cerrone fight, it was really solidified in my mind. Obviously this is made more apparent in that fight because Cowboy was also throwing Sub attempt after sub attempt, which were all dangerous.

I think that the wrestlers should get credit for a TD. But, I think the judges need to realize that alot of guys that use bjj in mma use it from their backs too. And imo a decent sub attempt should equal a decent TD. Via the current rules in mma, an incredible wrestler, can out-score an incredibly well-rounded mixed martial artist. I think this goes against the fundamental concepts of the sport.

If the judges scored sub attempts and TDs the same, and realized that some people are more dangerous off their backs (i.e. the TONS of people in pro and am mma that pull guard), then wrestlers would be forced to do more damage, and take bigger chances, and the fans would get a better fight.

I've obviously been frustrated about this for a while.
Why should a sub attempt be judged the same as a take down? A sub attempt is only an attempt, not a successful submission. That would be like saying you should get credit for a take down attempt because you tried it? Trying to work a submission and not getting it is like a punch that doesn't connect. It really doesn't matter. Also, what would constitute and effective / good attempt? There really isn't a way to gauge it. Now if you want to argue that the guy trying sub attempts is being more active than that's a different argument.
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