Dissecting Machida vs Shogun - Page 2 - MMA Forum - UFC Forums - UFC Results - MMA Videos
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Old 10-28-2009, 04:07 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Great post. great fight.
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Old 10-28-2009, 04:10 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Old 10-28-2009, 04:21 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I may be biased here. But to me its simple.

Shogun landed more strikes. Was the more agressive fighter. Had Octogon control in every round. And did the most damage. He won the fight.

Not that it matters, but it should be noted. Machida is serving a 60 day medical suspension for stitches on his lip. All Shogun had was a some redness on his forehead.

And not that it matters. At the end of the fight, Machida was a beaten man. Shogun could have faught 2-3 more rounds. What would have happened in a sudden victory round? I'll tell you, Machida would have gotten beaten even worse. To me the later rounds mean more. It tells you who did more damage.

And this whole you gotta beat the champ to be the champ is bull. If you win a close fight and it is the championship, your the champ. It happened in the Forrest/Rampage fight, and Shogun beat Machida more clearly than Forrest beat Rampage.

Oh yea, and so much for us never seeing the "Old Shogun " again, and his cardio being trashed. Well in a way your right. The Shogun that faught Machida was the best Shogun ever. His striking has improved ALOT, and his defense is great.

These 2 guys are just head and shoulders abover the rest of the LHW divsion in the UFC. They gotta bring in Mousasi. Let him fight Forrest, and watch him decimate Forrest.
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Old 10-28-2009, 04:29 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Not that it matters, but it should be noted. Machida is serving a 60 day medical suspension for stitches on his lip. All Shogun had was a some redness on his forehead.

And not that it matters. At the end of the fight, Machida was a beaten man. Shogun could have faught 2-3 more rounds.
How did Shogun win? According to the judges he didn't. I don't think he did according to the judging criteria. Note the fact that Mach was more beaten up is irrelevant, damage isn't scored. If the fight doesn't end in tko or submission, it isn't a fight it's a sports karate/ wrestling match.
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Old 10-28-2009, 04:36 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Not that it matters, but it should be noted. Machida is serving a 60 day medical suspension for stitches on his lip. All Shogun had was a some redness on his forehead.
The cut on Lyoto's lip is minor damage - just like shogun 'redness" only difference is the cut on the lip can be broken back open...

Also you can't really talk who was sorer you weren't there taking the shots. Perhaps shogun was just better composed considering this was the first fight Machida even took damage.
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Old 10-28-2009, 04:40 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Going to just avoid the ensuing argument and thank the OP for an awesome write-up, you should be seeing plenty of positive rep for this.
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Old 10-28-2009, 04:51 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Very nice investigation! That took a lot of effort, I am still trying to find the time to rewatch the fight on PVR!
Does sort of bring it more in line, but I still feel Shogun won the fight, I understand your point on well placed and timed strikes by Machida, however, one still can't deny the fact that Shogun completly controlled every round and clearly outstruck Machida both with head and body strikes, and in the end did way more damage.
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Old 10-28-2009, 04:55 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Alright, nice breakdown of the strikes. Now how about taking other things into consideration.

Shoguns total Octagon Control was key. Lyoto is elusive when it comes to strikes being thrown at him, but Shoguns push and presence was intimidating, Machida was the intimidated fighter here, constantly being backed away and cut off. Elusively dodging strikes is a good thing, being ran all over the mat is not.

Shoguns Aggression was high. Sure Machida made a few runs forward, and shogun backed off a few times. But the majority of the fight it was Shogun being the aggressor, and according to UFC standards, that is a trait they judge on.

Lastly Damage. Although the strike percentage may have been close, yet still in Shoguns favor, Shogun did far more damage to Machida. Machida had a welted up ribcage, which was actually red and raw. The insides of his legs were very very beat up and swollen with blood, the outside was also slightly swollen and red although the trunks covered a lot of the visible damage to the outside leg. Machida also suffered a slightly split lip from catching a nice punch. Shogun had a mouse under his eye for one round, which was tamed between rounds, and didnt develop into anything. Shoguns skin was also sweaty, which means machida made him hot.

Alright the last thing was a joke but honestly. Its not as clear cut as the strike count. The strike count may be close but the fight has other elements that they advertise judging on, and those elements werent close at all.

Striking - Pretty close on count, but Shogun landing more strikes. Also Shogun doing more damage with those strikes.

Grappling - Pretty much even, Both fighters landing shots in the clinch. Shogun might have edged out Machida on number of strikes in the clinch, but machida stuffed a few take downs. No clear winner here

Aggression - This was no contest. Machida isnt a super aggressive fighter as is, but Shogun was the clear aggressor here, hands down.

Octagon Control - All Shogun, had Machida backing up the whole fight, Shogun controlled the center of the octagon, and spent quite a bit of time pressing forward and cutting Machida off. Shogun had Machida against the cage a few times aswell. This goes to Shogun.

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Old 10-28-2009, 05:10 PM   #19 (permalink)
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How did Shogun win? According to the judges he didn't. I don't think he did according to the judging criteria. Note the fact that Mach was more beaten up is irrelevant, damage isn't scored. If the fight doesn't end in tko or submission, it isn't a fight it's a sports karate/ wrestling match.
He landed more strikes, was the agressor all night, and did more damage. That is how he won. Its not his fault the judges are the only 3 people that gave Machida the fight. Every single expert, columist scored the fight for Shogun.
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Old 10-28-2009, 05:34 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Now that I've had a proper chance to process it all, I have to admit that on the evidence of what I saw in the breakdown, the fight leans towards Shogun. Note I'm using the word "lean". It was very close.

The simple reason being that : I can say confidently that Shogun won 2 rounds ( 4 & 5 ) but in the case of Machida I cant only be sure about the 3rd. I felt he also won the 2nd but there's enough in it to make a convincing argument for Shogun.

The first round is a complete throw-up for me. Lots of good strikes by Shogun but many of them were knees to the thigh in the clinch as opposed to Machidas body shots.

My head says Shogun won. The evidence does support this.

BUT. I'm sorry if this sounds unreasonable, but my heart believes Lyoto won. It's the 3rd round you see. He did things there that made me gush. Unbelievably fantastic moves as opposed to Shoguns practical and extremely effective tactics. This is what makes me forgive the weaker 2nd round. I'm willing to bet the stunning 3rd had a big impact on the judges too. How can it not? He did shit I've seen no other fighter do in the UFC.

I'm gushing again.

PLEASE. Lets put to bed the argument that it was a rip off! It wasn't. There are plenty of solid reasons why the Judges could have felt either fighter won. I will accept that Shogun probably edged it, but I'm talking about a sharp fooking edge.

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