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Old 10-28-2009, 05:36 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by name goes here View Post
Good work. Personally I don't count knees to the leg in the clinch very highly.

More to the point this is beyond the ability of judges to calculate in a few minutes.

Decisions are a bad thing, judges are unable to decide accurately who did the best.

how can you not count knees in clinch. it covers a large portion of the scoring criteria. clinch control against the fence is octagon control, the knee strikes count as both effective striking and damage.

OP i got to spread the rep around a bit but i'll get back at you.
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Old 10-28-2009, 05:39 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by spaulding91 View Post
how can you not count knees in clinch. it covers a large portion of the scoring criteria. clinch control against the fence is octagon control, the knee strikes count as both effective striking and damage.

OP i got to spread the rep around a bit but i'll get back at you.
Specifically talking knees to the thighs. Knees to the body from the clinch are a different kettle of fish, that's for sure.
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Old 10-28-2009, 09:15 PM   #23 (permalink)
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If you read the description of Octagon Control and Agressiveness in the criteria used for scoring it doesn't amount to much.

Shogun tried to get the fight to the ground, he wasn't able.

Do you think Shogun really put Machida in places where he didn't want to be?

It's a close fight, how ever you look at it.
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Old 10-28-2009, 09:25 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I just watched the fight again with no sound.....Lyoto won the first three rounds and Im not really sure why people think it was close, he brought it to Rua and did so on multiple occasions in the round. Second was closer slightly but I have Lyoto as the aggressor and I think due to the increased pace of the second Lyoto came ready in the third and that RD to me was the most convincing RD for him..


RD 4 and 5 I conceed to Shogun, but Lyoto Machida won that fight.....

Rounds in order of best to not lost:

1. RD3
2. RD1
3.RD 2
4. RD4 Rua
5. RD 5Rua

Last edited by coldcall420 : 10-28-2009 at 09:28 PM.
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Old 10-29-2009, 05:06 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Just rewatching the fight with your breakdown, heres my thoughts:

Quote:
Round 1

4:46 - Shogun lands nice left hook
4:47 - Machida lands 4 knees to body in clinch
4:10 - Machida left kick to upper body
4:05 - Shogun Right kick to inner thigh
4:02 - Machida Left knee to chest
3:46 - Shogun 3 knees to thigh from the clinch pretty sure Shogun lands more than 3 knees but it hard to tell because of the camera angle. He throws 5 but I think one does nothing.
3:20 - Shogun Right knee to body
3:13 - Shogun Blocks Lyotos left kick and counters with right kick to inner thigh
3:00 - Machida misses with flying knee before stuffing Shoguns takedown
2:57 - Shogun connects with 2 knees to legs in the clinch
2:07 - Machida connects with light kick to the leg but following punch is blocked I wouldn't even count that as a strike lol, I could kick a new born child like that a thousand times and I'm sure the baby would be laughing
1:45 - Shogun lands nice body knee and just avoids Lyotos counter.
1:00 - Both Shogun and Machida land leg kicks in the same instance What I see is both going for a kick at the same time(Shogun a bit sooner) and Shogun landing a really powerful one. Machida's leg is caught while he is kicking and loses most of its momentum. I wouldn't even count Machidas kick as a strike. Machida also goes for a punch at the same time which is blocked by Shogun.
0:53 - Lyoto lands a left kick to body
0:49 - Shogun lands a kick on Machidas bum followed by a nice right hook to the head
0:22 - Shogun lands nice right leg body kick which Lyoto counters immediatly with a right kick to shoguns knee. Machida tries that same punch kick combo and lands the kick.

Round 2

4:40 - Shogun lands a lovely straight left counter
4:38 - Shogun clips knee with right kick
4:15 - Shogun lands a kick here, but its hard to tell if it connects cleanly due to the camera angle. You can hear the thud though
4:06 - Shogun lands a right kick counter to Lyotos thigh
4:05 - Lyoto lands a two punch combo to the head. ( although the angle made this difficult to confirm 100% ) I would say that these two don't connect, pretty sure of it. Shogun is backing off and has his guard up. Looks like Lyoto is just punching air. However, the opening left punch a second before the combo looks like it landed. Really hard to tell though
3:50 - Shogun right kick to the mid section somewhere. ( very fast )
3:19 - Shogun right knee to chest immediatly countered by right kick from Lyoto to shoguns upper leg/arse.
3:09 - Shogun tries for a take down but gets stuffedLooks like Lyoto landed a knee when Shogun comes in
2:32 - Machida left knee to Shoguns knee
2:23 - Shogun lands a body kick or is it blocked? I'm pretty sure it lands, it looks lower than where Machida's hands are.
2:19 - Shogun looks like he lands another body kick but its hard for me to tell if Machida blocks it. I wish I was watching a better quality video
2:02 - Machida lands a body kick.
1:54 - Looks like Shogun lands a body kick, but hard to tell from angle.
1:37 - Machida right kick to shoguns planted shinI don't see this kick hitting anything but air...
1:35 - Shogun left knee to the body counter. Nice.
1:29 - Shogun connects with left knee to the body with Machida countering with a straight left follewed by a left kick to the knee of standing leg. These guys rock! It looks like Shogun connect with his shin, not the knee, and wow was that a hard kick. Jumping and turning his entire hip into it!
1:19 - Machida looks like he connected with a right kick to thigh, but angle was poor. I would definitely say this kick does not land
1:11 - Shogun lands a kick on Machidas thigh
0:54 - Shogun lands a straight kick on Machidas Right shoulder
0:51 - Machida left knee to chest Shogun also lands a knee here a second after
0:45 - Shogun lands 10 knees to Lyotos legs from the following clinch
0.28 - Machida lands a knee from the clinch

Round 3

4:48 - Another mad exchange. Shogun right kick to body, countered my a Machida straight left and left kick to inside knee. All inside 1/4 of a second. Amazing.I don't think Machida's punch lands
4:32 - Machida lands hard right to Shoguns head followed by left kick to body
4:30 - Shogun right kick to inner thigh and Machida left kick to body
4:04 - Shogun left kick to body
3:18 - Lyoto lands left body kick and Shogun also lands a right kick to inside knee
2:55 - Rua lands right kick to upper thigh which Machida counters with a straight right to the head I don't think Machida's punch lands, Rua is clearly guarding
2:35 - Shogun lands knee to leg in the clinch and an elbow to the head as they disengage.
2:20 - Machida catches shoguns knee with left kick but shogun couunters with a hard right kick to the knee. Machida's kick barely makes contact, it looks like he touched him with his toes if it made contact at all, I wouldn't even count it as a strike.
2:01 - Shogun connects with right kick to inner thigh and Machida connects with left kick to the body. Both hard shot.I gotta give Shogun the better of this exchange. He turns his whole hip into the kick and catches Machida on the leg where his entire weight is planted.
1:51 - Shogun counters Lyoto with a hard right kick to the body. Again, Lyoto finishes with a left kick to the inside knee of the standing leg. Machid threw a punch here but its hard to tell if it lands
1:04 - Shogun right kick to upper thigh This was a really hard kick and it looks like it lands around the knee
1:02 - Machida knee to the body from the clinch
0:35 - Machida feints with a left, Shogun counters with his trademark right kick to thigh which opens him up for a Machida hard right. Wow. Just Wow.
0:34 - Machida right hook connects follwed by right knee to Shoguns body
0:31 - Machida lands a left hook
0:30 - Shogun covers up then throws a quick left hook. Nice punch
0:29 - A hard Machida left kick to the body. Shogun just gets enough on it to stop big damage
0:27 - Lots of missed punches in the "flurry" finishing with a sweet Shogun right hook that rocks Machida into a clinch

Round 4

3:50 - Shogun right inside leg kick counter.
3:14 - Machida right punch to the body (?) and Shogun counters with right kick to body.
3:09 - Machida high kick to Shoguns head. Nice. Its clearly blocked by Shogun but he still probably felt it a little. Definitely not a clean strike
3:01 - Machida slips and Shogun is on him like hookers on coke.
2:36 - Shoguns takedown attempt ends and they disengage.
2:19 - Hard shogun right kick to the outside of Lyotos leg.
2:18 - Lyoto slips a short right through Shoguns guard to the face.
2:15 - Shogun knee to body I think. The angle sucked.
1:46 - Shogun right kick to outside knee. Ouch.
1:33 - Shogun lands a jab before coming into the clinch
1:32 - Shogun clinches
1:28 - Shogun lands short right elbow as they disengage
1:04 - Shogun hard right knee to Lyotos body.
0:45 - Shoddy angle, but looks like Shogun right kick to outer thigh.

Round 5

4:51 - Shogun right kick to inside thigh
4:33 - Shogun crunching right kick to Lyotos outer thigh. Really nice.
4:00 - Shogun lands a leg kick
3:31 - Shogun catches Machidas leg and connects with a nice right kick to the inside knee.
2:46 - Machida hard right knee to body.
2:20 - They clinch for a while each throwing a knee to the others thigh.
1:45 - Looks like Shogun lands a jab coming into the clinch, hard to tell if it lands though.
1:42 - Disengaging from the clinch, Shogun throws a left elbow and a right hook. I dont think the elbow connected though.
1:20 - Lyoto left knee to the body
I still think Shogun won! Dam, what am I doing lol, I gotta study
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Old 10-29-2009, 05:09 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by coldcall420 View Post
I just watched the fight again with no sound.....Lyoto won the first three rounds and Im not really sure why people think it was close, he brought it to Rua and did so on multiple occasions in the round. Second was closer slightly but I have Lyoto as the aggressor and I think due to the increased pace of the second Lyoto came ready in the third and that RD to me was the most convincing RD for him..


RD 4 and 5 I conceed to Shogun, but Lyoto Machida won that fight.....

Rounds in order of best to not lost:

1. RD3
2. RD1
3.RD 2
4. RD4 Rua
5. RD 5Rua
the part that really irks me is seeing Machida as the aggressor... i mean.... come on.... really?
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Old 10-29-2009, 06:11 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by alizio View Post
the part that really irks me is seeing Machida as the aggressor... i mean.... come on.... really?

He won the 1st three rounds IMHO....on his nutts or not I have watched it multiple times and the more i watch the 1st three rounds he won them......
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Old 10-29-2009, 06:17 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Exactly! I also scored the 4 round a draw 10:10! So even this round could have gone to Lyoto.
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Old 10-29-2009, 07:07 PM   #29 (permalink)
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i respect your opinions, but i think some bias got in the way, even subconciously, even you would have to omit yourself from judging a fight invovling your fav fighter imo.... just like i have never gotten invovled in a Rampage/Forrest debate, Rampage is my fav fighter (i know, i know, not a popular choice these days) and i have a strong opinion about the fight, but being such a hardcore Rampage fan for many years, i do think perhaps my bias is in the way, even tho i try my best to be impartial.
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Old 10-30-2009, 05:16 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by alizio View Post
i respect your opinions, but i think some bias got in the way, even subconciously, even you would have to omit yourself from judging a fight invovling your fav fighter imo.... just like i have never gotten invovled in a Rampage/Forrest debate, Rampage is my fav fighter (i know, i know, not a popular choice these days) and i have a strong opinion about the fight, but being such a hardcore Rampage fan for many years, i do think perhaps my bias is in the way, even tho i try my best to be impartial.
I'm completely willing to accept that I got some of the action wrong. Oliver Twist even did a re-watch and added some features he considered missing. I'm also willing to accept he might be 100% correct in his observations.

However, Fightmetric stated Rua got 82 connected strikes in compared to the 59 that I counted ( including those lame 10 knees to the thigh in round 2 ). There is no way in hell I completely missed 23 connected strikes! Bullshit. I'll say again. THAT SITE IS FULL OF SHIT. They must have scored it listening to Rogans commentary!

That was the biggest point I was trying to make. I don't want Fightmetric being used to conclude debates when clearly it's a biased site. If anybody brings up that site again to prove a point I'm going to scream.
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