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Old 11-09-2009, 12:04 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Toxic View Post
when does the part start when Brock isnt out grappling Randy?

I think it was when Randy was laying on his back looking up at the lights.
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Old 11-09-2009, 12:06 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Alright, everyone knows I'm a Lesnar hater and Fedor nuthugger. Out of respect however I usually choose to back my hate and love with facts and historical evidence.

I've got a question for Lesnar fans to answer:

Where is this extreme learning curve that Lesnar apparently has?

He didn't look any better technically against Couture than he did against Mir. Infact, Couture proved that Lesnar's wrestling is overrated. With a massive reach and weight disadvantage, Couture still neutralized Brock's take downs.

His standup didn't look any better either. Infact, in Mir II he didn't want to stand with Mir at all. Some crazy improvement huh? He did throw a leg kick or two, so that's something.

Now he did utilize wrist control more actively in Mir II, but that was due to respect to Mir's ground game. In the first match Lesnar came out very cocky, and with the help of a bias ref he paid for it.

I will give that in that one match, Lesnar's game plan seemed to compliment how terrible Mir's game plan was. That is measurable improvement. Props to his coach.


But we're not seeing this wild improvement from Lesnar - I don't take it seriously when people say "in a few years, Lesnar will be unstoppable."

People thought that a lot about Sapp too. Lesnar has only proven to be one-dimensional, his submission game and his standup have not improved.

Some fighters simply cannot adapt. It's tough to admit, but look at Sapp, look at poor Maia, look at Houston Alexander. These guys work on their stand up or ground game respectively full time to try to improve. But do they? No, it just does not come naturally for them.

If you watch one of Maia's first fights, a striker is coming at him and he throws two predictable high kicks. This is the same mistake he makes years later against Marquardt. Yet he's had top-tier training with world class muay thai strikers.

It's possible Brock will improve and become a well-rounded fighter. But at this point there is no evidence for that, and this mentality is getting a little crazy I think.
Dude, Bob Sapp barely even trains. and I have noticed improvement in Mia's stand up. His fight before Nate he was doing pretty well. And do you train with Houston Alexander now? How exactly do you know his Jitz has not improved from last month or from last year? You state guesses, not facts. And Brock Lesner is absolutely improving. The current Brock Lesner would beat Heath Herring in the 1st round. I'm not a fan of him either after UFC 100 but he's dangerous and improving.
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Old 11-09-2009, 07:28 AM   #23 (permalink)
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To say that Lesnar is an unstoppable force in the HW division is quite silly in my opinion. Yes he has the HW title currently and some good wrestling credentials, but i think people are a little too quite to jump on the bandwagon.

For example if you think back a few years, Tim Sylvia was the HW title holder and defended it twice, somthing Lesar is yet to do. And yet we look back on him as an absolute spud, even though his wins to get the title were far more decisive than that of Lesnar.

Also, alot you people believe that Lesnar is some kind of genetic freak, this is not true. Randy Couture who is 40 pounds lighter than Brock pushed him around and was not particularly physically bullied by brock. Not to say brock isn't strong, but he does not have god like strength as some make him out to have, and this I BELIEVE will be exposed when fighting larger heavywieghts.

Also, i do believe Brock is not in the league of Fedor. Yes his takedowns are amazing, but people forget Fedor's takedown defense is also very good. To be honest i can't believe anyone can think or even want to think that someone with so little experience can beat a true champion thats trained all his life. Too see that happen would be a loss for the sport in my opinion.

Finally, just because brock is big and athletic doesn't mean he is capable of learning new things (especially BJJ and boxing) to the point where he can compete with people who have been doing it their whole lives... i really don't think he is that amazing.

Just my thoughts
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Old 11-09-2009, 08:37 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Stan Darsh View Post
Finally, just because brock is big and athletic doesn't mean he is capable of learning new things (especially BJJ and boxing) to the point where he can compete with people who have been doing it their whole lives... i really don't think he is that amazing.
I agree, he's not particularly amazing, but his resource pool is compared to 99% of other MMA fighters. One guy might be doing MMA for 10 years via his local gym and doing side jobs to make ends meet. Brock invests huge sums of cash and has the best trainers and the best equipment bought in to make him better. He doesn't share a gym, he f*cking built one! Just for himself, not as a profit making enterprise.

Because of this, Brock has a massive advantage regards the speed he can expand his skill set and keep himself sharp.

As mentioned before, the only other fighter I can think of that shares the same advantages is BJ Penn. Is it any surprise he also made this way through the sport at a much faster pace than anybody else. Penn obviously has far more natural ability than Brock, but there's no way he would have got his BBJ black belt so quickly if he had to work a job at the time.
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Old 11-09-2009, 09:06 AM   #25 (permalink)
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I'd say his largest improvement is in his game planning and application of existing skills. He's learned to be a more patient fighter, he's now better than ever at using his size, wrestling, and strength to neutralize other fighters' skills and pound them silly. Look at his two fights against Frank Mir, in the 2nd fight he took away Mir's BJJ completely and used short hard, measured punches to the head to finish him instead of wild hammerfists.
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Old 11-09-2009, 09:33 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Yes. Just look at his 2nd fight with Mir. he controlled a BJJ black belt on the ground. Superior size and stregth? Yes; skill and technique? Of course. He obviously did better in there 1st match-up.

Brock needs more fighting exp (more fights) to feel comfortable trying new stuff. Imagine if Cain or Carwin has Lesnar on his back and attemps an arm bar or other submission, now thats scary and that day will come

His bread and butter is enough to be UFC HW champ and 2nd rank HW in the world....
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Old 11-09-2009, 09:35 AM   #27 (permalink)
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People need to adapt to Brock more than Brock needs to adapt to others. The difference between Brock and (sigh) Bob Sapp is that Lesnar is a champion, he gives a shit about fighting, has previous practice in an MMA discipline, and you know, actually trains.

I don't think the perspective of his enthusiasts is one of unlimited growth in skill. Enthusiasm over Lesnar stems from his dominating physique combined with the fact that he isn't like Bob Sapp or Houston Alexander, he learns enough to win, he has the resources and the time to develop. I would definitely put hard limits on his abilities as a striker, but his size and power are so great, that he is always dangerous in the stand up.

He isn't like Tito due to lack of upper limits in the HW division and his sheer size. Tito might a have been a big LHW but he was still dealing with opponents in a comparable range. Lesnar stature alone puts him at advantage over most of his opponents.

Of course Lesnar isn't unstoppable. It's just that the skillsets that would beat him don't really exist in the UFC HW division right now, the exception being Shane Carwin, who would stil be an underdog.

Actually come to think of it, match ups for Brock outside the UFC seem to me to be more interesting. Fedor, Silva, Overeem come to mind. I would love to see Overeem with or without roids fight Brock. That would be a sight to see.
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:19 AM   #28 (permalink)
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I think he's improving largely in the fact that he doesn't appear to have near the fight anxiety he's had before. That is one of the biggest improvements you can make. His knees on Couture made me cringe. He figured out how to finish fights via GnP. I'm not a big fan of the personality he portrays but I think his fighting is damn good and getting better.
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Old 11-09-2009, 11:42 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Talk about jumping the gun on a subject..
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Old 11-09-2009, 01:26 PM   #30 (permalink)
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i've thought about some of the things you are mentioning too, i dont think that lesnar is the unstoppable freight train people make him out to be
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