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Old 11-09-2009, 10:46 PM   #21 (permalink)
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MC you are ridiculously overating Cro Cops take down defense, Lesnar took Couture down from the clinch agaisnt the cage, Randy was an Olympic alternate in Greco Roman, his ability to defend that clinch takedown is miles ahead of absolutely anything Cro Cop ever had.
I believe you are ridiculously overrating Lesnar's takedowns.

He's taken down - Mir, Herring. He did well against Randy, who is much, much smaller and much, much older. Yes, Randy is a great wrestler, but he had nothing for Nog on the ground/clinch in their fight. His age is showing.

Mirko had excellent TDD. There were very few who could take him down, even Fedor struggled to do so.

Brock is not some monster takedown artist, as the only two people he's been able to takedown easily were Mir and Herring, both having weak TDD. Herring also stood up against Brock once or twice in their fight, and his ground game is bad.

Brock is a huge guy and has potential, but an in prime Mirko would murder him on the feet and would keep is standing long enough to do so.
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:46 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Gabe Gonzaga took down Mirko in his prime and beat him up. People like to think or say Mirko lost it at this point but that's just not true. The fight was only 7 months after he won the Pride GP. When he was arguably at his best.
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:48 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I think nog,randleman,cloeman,cc, aa,tim,brett could possible give brock a good fight.
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:57 PM   #24 (permalink)

 
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I believe you are ridiculously overrating Lesnar's takedowns.

He's taken down - Mir, Herring. He did well against Randy, who is much, much smaller and much, much older. Yes, Randy is a great wrestler, but he had nothing for Nog on the ground/clinch in their fight. His age is showing.

Mirko had excellent TDD. There were very few who could take him down, even Fedor struggled to do so.

Brock is not some monster takedown artist, as the only two people he's been able to takedown easily were Mir and Herring, both having weak TDD. Herring also stood up against Brock once or twice in their fight, and his ground game is bad.

Brock is a huge guy and has potential, but an in prime Mirko would murder him on the feet and would keep is standing long enough to do so.
I will go a step further really I don't think Lesnar's TD's are that good technically but he is so much bigger and stronger that it doesn't matter, Randy was technically miles ahead of him but Lesnar just used raw strength to push through and I have zero reason to believe he wouldnt have done the same to Mirko, why not cause Fedor had trouble? Of course Miko is bigger than Fedor he is still quite a fair bit smaller then Lesnar though.
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Old 11-09-2009, 10:58 PM   #25 (permalink)
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So who finished Randy? I forget..
Nog finished Randy in the first round, it just wasn't called. The ref said he would have stopped it if he was on the other side of the cage and saw how badly hurt Couture was.

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Gabe Gonzaga took down Mirko in his prime and beat him up. People like to think or say Mirko lost it at this point but that's just not true. The fight was only 7 months after he won the Pride GP. When he was arguably at his best.
I think people really like to underrate Gonzaga's takedowns. "He took Carwin down, Carwin must suck. He took CroCop down, CroCop must suck..."

Could it be that he's a veteran BJJ master who's well versed in take downs and weighs 260lbs?
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Old 11-09-2009, 11:08 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I will go a step further really I don't think Lesnar's TD's are that good technically but he is so much bigger and stronger that it doesn't matter, Randy was technically miles ahead of him but Lesnar just used raw strength to push through and I have zero reason to believe he wouldnt have done the same to Mirko, why not cause Fedor had trouble? Of course Miko is bigger than Fedor he is still quite a fair bit smaller then Lesnar though.
Mirko was not that much larger than Fedor, although I see where you are coming from.

The thing is, Randy is much smaller than Lesnar, and much older, too. Brock has a lot of physical strength, no quesetion, it's why he was even able to do anything at all to Randy. The thing is, if Randy was younger, if he was a bit bigger, he would have thrown Lesnar around easily.

Cro Cop in his prime is a little bigger than Randy, and his TDD was very, very solid. He was also young, fast, and explosive. Fedor struggled a lot to get him down, and did you see how easily Fedor threw Rogers around, who happens to be a very large man himself?

Keep in mind, I am in no way comparing Rogers to Lesnar, Lesnar is a better wrestler and he is a bit bigger than Rogers, but Fedor struggled a lot to get Mirko down, yet he can throw solid, top 10 heavyweights much larger than him around like little kids.

Lesnar would have problems getting Mirko down in his prime. Could he take him down? Yeah, it's definitely possible. He's huge, has good wrestling, and a solid build. However, is it more likely that a prime Mirko, who has very, very solid TDD and the best striking at HW and in MMA in general (at the time) would beat Brock? Yes, I would say so.
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Old 11-09-2009, 11:08 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Anyone that is going to argue that Lesnar's takedowns/wrestling isn't that good because of his fight with Couture and then say Cro Cop could avoid them because of this isn't looking at things the right way.

Cro Cop may have good TDD but it isn't in the same category as Coutures. The fact that Lesnar could and did take Couture down and keep him there for a while pretty much guarantees that he could get Cro Cop down as well. The only difference is that Cro Cop probably wouldn't be able to get back up after the fight went to the ground.
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Old 11-09-2009, 11:08 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Nog finished Randy in the first round, it just wasn't called. The ref said he would have stopped it if he was on the other side of the cage and saw how badly hurt Couture was.



I think people really like to underrate Gonzaga's takedowns. "He took Carwin down, Carwin must suck. He took CroCop down, CroCop must suck..."

Could it be that he's a veteran BJJ master who's well versed in take downs and weighs 260lbs?
A 290 pound wrestler couldn't execute the same take down?

Oh, I don't think Gonzaga's take downs suck, though I don't think they are the best either.
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Old 11-09-2009, 11:14 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 420atalon View Post
Anyone that is going to argue that Lesnar's takedowns/wrestling isn't that good because of his fight with Couture and then say Cro Cop could avoid them because of this isn't looking at things the right way.

Cro Cop may have good TDD but it isn't in the same category as Coutures. The fact that Lesnar could and did take Couture down and keep him there for a while pretty much guarantees that he could get Cro Cop down as well. The only difference is that Cro Cop probably wouldn't be able to get back up after the fight went to the ground.
CroCop would definitely be able to shrimp and fight out of it. Heath Herring got out of full mount a few times against Lesnar.


And let's not overrate Lesnar's striking either. Randy got the best of him quite a few times, and the reach/height advantage was ridiculous. It's possible that a prime Mirko would have KO'd Lesnar before it had a chance to go to the ground.


Man, I want to see Rogers vs Lesnar or Overeem vs Lesnar in a pretty bad way.


edit: Dropkick, Crocop stood right back up out of that take down. And GG's ground creds are way better than Lesnar's, and he only weighs a little less.
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Old 11-09-2009, 11:50 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I see Fedor's record as a combination of skill and luck, in a way that had the luck not gone his way he would have a record more like 23 wins and 8 losses. With 240+lb men throwing haymakers that nearly miss his head, on any given night one of those could have landed and taken him out, in his entire career I've seen Fedor get dazed once and I think a little luck attests to it not being more. I mean, look at the Arlovski fight, some of those punches were so close had they landed there's a good chance the fight would've gone the other way. That's why I agree with the TS, Brock would give Fedor some huge problems if he could get a hold of him.
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