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Old 12-26-2006, 07:36 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmyz
obviously you know nothing about karate. St.Pierre fighting style is Kyokoshin Karate if you watch him fight its obvious that hes a kyokoshin practitioner. All his kicks and all of his strikes are all kyokoshin. He kept training in kyokoshin karate until the time his master died and thats when he started training with renzo gracie.



GSP is kyokoshin and Chuck Lidell is Koei Kan

They both attribute their success to their karate backrounds because Chuck has Koei Kan tatooed on the side of his head. That kanji you always see says koei kan karate do. He also has kenpo tatooed on his left arm because he trained in kempo as well. He uses those fighting styles when he fights thats why he has a good kicking backround.

YouTube - Daido juku MMA karate knockdown (complete)

thats kyokoshin karate tell me that isnt how gsp fights? you can kiss my ass if you think thats muay thai because thats what real karate looks like not the wholesale karate mart systems that most people train under. This is real hard japanese karate. To the guy that said they dont use their karate you obviously dont know much about karate.

Thats also where GSP originally learned where to ground fight because alot of these people attribute that to cross training but real japanese karate teaches ground fighting as part of the curriculum. Thats why in that video the people know how to do arm bars. They didnt cross train thats all karate.
I'm sorry to inform you, but Kyokushin IS a Muay Thai ripoff (as is the Chinese art of SanShou Kung Fu). Kyokushin was created in the 60s (and Sanshou in the 20s) AFTER people realized the phenomenal success and effectiveness of Muay Thai as a fighting system. Look up their founding dates in the Wikipedia. Yes, they are both effective systems, but they are not even really Karate or Kung-Fu, yet they are being used to validate the effectivness of those disciplines that share nothing but a name and a few techniques here and there with them. If I take all modern MMA fighting techniques and combine them to call it "Ballet - <Generic Asian Word>", it doesn't make Ballet a deadly street art.

As for Eye Gouging, throat punches, groin kicks etc.. anyone can use those, you don't need 10 years of training to know how to poke someone's eye out or kick them in the balls. The real challenge is to be able to get past someone's guard and defenses to do those things, and Karate techniques seem ineffective in real life in doing that.

Take for example the standard Karate "Block"; it involves sticking your arm waay out and meeting the opponents attack (usually a slow, simulated haymaker in the katas). That would never work in real life... if your arm is way out there with your face exposed, your opponent will either fake you out and knock your chin off or switch his angle at the last minute with the same result. And don't even get me started on "Katas"..

Lastly, Chuck Liddell may have a Karate Tattoo, but that's probably because he learnt a lot of those other qualities I mentioned before from his Karate instructor (such as discipline, stamina etc.) and respects it for that. But his fighting technique is listed as kickboxing and thats all I've seen him use, apart from his own patent haymakers and takedown defense (there is no WAY he learnt that stuff from karate). The only kicks he uses are standard MMA/Kickboxing low and high kicks and those aren't really Karate-specific either

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Old 12-26-2006, 07:41 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Simply amazes me how some people do not know how to debate correctly and rely on name calling and blantant ignorant statements just like second graders...
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Old 12-26-2006, 08:27 PM   #33 (permalink)
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"Take for example the standard Karate "Block"; it involves sticking your arm waay out and meeting the opponents attack (usually a slow, simulated haymaker in the katas). That would never work in real life... if your arm is way out there with your face exposed, your opponent will either fake you out and knock your chin off or switch his angle at the last minute with the same result. And don't even get me started on "Katas".."

I took Karate for years and we had multiple high blocks. The one you are describing is not one of them. The guy who lost to Kos was a karate guy and although Kos's standup is greatly improved the Karate guy dominated on the feet. Much like tkd there are some styles that are more sport than fighting style but good ol Karate is a very strong stand up style. I started boxing when I was a very young kid but Karate increased my punch strength tremendously. Also Bunkai Katas are a great way for a newb to get used to spacing, control, and as a step towards sparring. Katas themselves are a very good way for me to get serious, gain my focus, and get warmed up. In todays mma world a background in Karate can be very helpful along with wrestling and jj. It is a piece of the puzzle for a complete fighter.
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Old 12-27-2006, 12:21 AM   #34 (permalink)
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07 Wish-List

Some of these will never happen but here goes:

Fedor/Sylvia
Cro-Cop/Sylvia
Liddell/Wand
Liddell/Arona
Babalu/Tito
Shogun/Babalu II
Penn/GSP II
Bas Rutten return to fight in UFC
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Old 12-27-2006, 03:47 AM   #35 (permalink)
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GSP vs. Bj Penn(A focus Bj)
Fedor vs. Crocop
Liddell vs. Rampage
Sylvia vs. Crocop
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Old 12-27-2006, 06:44 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by leew11k
hunt vs sylvia
fedor vs sylvia
cro cop vs sylvia
wand vs sylvia
vera vs sylvia
i would love to see that ahole fight anyone of these guys but obviously going to only be vera, whose gonnae kick his ass

Haha nice one min. I see you are a weegie as well. I'm from Forfar just outside in Dundee. Nice to see another Scot in here.
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Old 12-27-2006, 06:46 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickman9000
Dude, youre pretty fukin smart. All I know is, every mma fight I've ever seen where one of the guys claims Karate as his style, that guy ALWAYS get their ass kicked. UFC or otherwise. As for ripping ears and all that, we are talking about whats effective in the octagon, not whats effective on the street. Hell why not just stab the guy?
As for the dude that went over to thialand and beat down the entire population, he probably woulda been a baddass no matter what martial art he chose. Same goes for Liddell.

YouTube - Jiu Jitsu vs. Karate
Yeah I know Im smart thats why im a college graduate. All of the strikes in mma are the same damn strikes in every martial art even boxing and muay thai. Every technique that is in boxing is incorperated in karate. Every technique in muay thai is in karate. By saying that its crappy your knocking those styles because the technique is the same.

also that video you posted makes me wonder what system the guy fights in because unless its a mainstream system saying you have a black belt in karate doesnt mean much. Also Id rather study a karate system over kick boxing because karate incorporates ground fighting as well. Like the system I train under has Onishi Jiu Jitzu which predates the gracie system by a couple of hundread years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddellianenko
I'm sorry to inform you, but Kyokushin IS a Muay Thai ripoff (as is the Chinese art of SanShou Kung Fu). Kyokushin was created in the 60s (and Sanshou in the 20s) AFTER people realized the phenomenal success and effectiveness of Muay Thai as a fighting system. Look up their founding dates in the Wikipedia. Yes, they are both effective systems, but they are not even really Karate or Kung-Fu, yet they are being used to validate the effectivness of those disciplines that share nothing but a name and a few techniques here and there with them. If I take all modern MMA fighting techniques and combine them to call it "Ballet - <Generic Asian Word>", it doesn't make Ballet a deadly street art.

As for Eye Gouging, throat punches, groin kicks etc.. anyone can use those, you don't need 10 years of training to know how to poke someone's eye out or kick them in the balls. The real challenge is to be able to get past someone's guard and defenses to do those things, and Karate techniques seem ineffective in real life in doing that.

Take for example the standard Karate "Block"; it involves sticking your arm waay out and meeting the opponents attack (usually a slow, simulated haymaker in the katas). That would never work in real life... if your arm is way out there with your face exposed, your opponent will either fake you out and knock your chin off or switch his angle at the last minute with the same result. And don't even get me started on "Katas"..

Lastly, Chuck Liddell may have a Karate Tattoo, but that's probably because he learnt a lot of those other qualities I mentioned before from his Karate instructor (such as discipline, stamina etc.) and respects it for that. But his fighting technique is listed as kickboxing and thats all I've seen him use, apart from his own patent haymakers and takedown defense (there is no WAY he learnt that stuff from karate). The only kicks he uses are standard MMA/Kickboxing low and high kicks and those aren't really Karate-specific either
kyokoshin is a system founded that bases of of Gojo Ryu thats where he got his master status. You can look up dates all you want but look at where masoyama trained and who he trained under he trained under funakoshi. Dont try to give me a lecture on history that I have a degree in .

If you watch the way chuck liddelle fights it is streight out of the koei kan text book. The over hand right that he uses is common in koei kan its like the signature move of the system. Also all of his kicks are in koei kan. All the kicks in that system and all karate systems for that matter have the kick boxing kicks and more. So him studying that art and learning those kicks from them directly attributes to his fighting style because thats where he learned it from. All those kicks are the kicks first taught to white belts.

ie. Mawashi Geri

also the karate block isnt a block how you do it. in their blocks they cover and then intercept the strike. what your talking about is the way that its taught to beginers high ranking people dont block like that its simply a teaching method. You overexagerate the block to prove a point and to build upon that later on for more compact blocks. Also the point of blocking in karate isnt to intercept the impact of the blow thats stupid. You want to stop the impact before it even happens. You want to block before its any where near your face. And yeah your open but you have another hand to block with and the other persons arm is tied up by that same block.

Also you have to be pretty slow if your making fun of kara because you have no idea what your talking about. You know who else uses kata?

Kick Boxers use kata
Boxers use kata
Jiu Jitzu uses kata

All it is is combinations. Your training a reaction for when a certain situation arises. When boxers train combinations thats kata your doing the same thing. Your setting up one hit to open up another location for another move.

Right to the body and hook to the ribs makes the oponent focus on the body when you raise up and hit him with a right hook right he imediately raises up because you focused the attention upward and then when you duck down and use left hook he immediately protects the body and you follow it up with a uppercut thats a knock out combination that set up the person for multiple power shots. Thats kata.

Look at how the gracies teach the self defense portion of their system. THEY USE KATA. Helio Gracie himself has said that kata is a essential part of the Gracie fighting system.
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Old 12-27-2006, 06:53 AM   #38 (permalink)
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alot of you guys on here are great but some of you guys need to start doing alot of research because youve fallen into alot of stereo types and take popular beleif to be fact.

I bet alot of you guys would go out and say that karate doesnt have ground fighting its just stand up. These same people will also think that mma was created by the gracies or by the UFC when the first mma style tournaments were held in Japan. Ever hear of the wars?

Being a good fighter isnt just about how you train or what style you train under. The difference in striking styles are very minute. If you want to be a good fighter it isnt just about training its about knowledge. If you havent read about people who have gone before you and dont do research to help your training then you are greatly limiting yourself.

I read about all martial arts. My library has everything from chinese, japanese, korean, philipeno and thai to other martial arts that most people dont know about like the indian martial arts, arabic martial arts, french, turkish, cuban, african, greek, celtic. Etc..
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Old 12-27-2006, 03:13 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmyz
Yeah I know Im smart thats why im a college graduate. All of the strikes in mma are the same damn strikes in every martial art even boxing and muay thai. Every technique that is in boxing is incorperated in karate. Every technique in muay thai is in karate. By saying that its crappy your knocking those styles because the technique is the same.

also that video you posted makes me wonder what system the guy fights in because unless its a mainstream system saying you have a black belt in karate doesnt mean much. Also Id rather study a karate system over kick boxing because karate incorporates ground fighting as well. Like the system I train under has Onishi Jiu Jitzu which predates the gracie system by a couple of hundread years.



kyokoshin is a system founded that bases of of Gojo Ryu thats where he got his master status. You can look up dates all you want but look at where masoyama trained and who he trained under he trained under funakoshi. Dont try to give me a lecture on history that I have a degree in .

If you watch the way chuck liddelle fights it is streight out of the koei kan text book. The over hand right that he uses is common in koei kan its like the signature move of the system. Also all of his kicks are in koei kan. All the kicks in that system and all karate systems for that matter have the kick boxing kicks and more. So him studying that art and learning those kicks from them directly attributes to his fighting style because thats where he learned it from. All those kicks are the kicks first taught to white belts.

ie. Mawashi Geri

also the karate block isnt a block how you do it. in their blocks they cover and then intercept the strike. what your talking about is the way that its taught to beginers high ranking people dont block like that its simply a teaching method. You overexagerate the block to prove a point and to build upon that later on for more compact blocks. Also the point of blocking in karate isnt to intercept the impact of the blow thats stupid. You want to stop the impact before it even happens. You want to block before its any where near your face. And yeah your open but you have another hand to block with and the other persons arm is tied up by that same block.

Also you have to be pretty slow if your making fun of kara because you have no idea what your talking about. You know who else uses kata?

Kick Boxers use kata
Boxers use kata
Jiu Jitzu uses kata

All it is is combinations. Your training a reaction for when a certain situation arises. When boxers train combinations thats kata your doing the same thing. Your setting up one hit to open up another location for another move.

Right to the body and hook to the ribs makes the oponent focus on the body when you raise up and hit him with a right hook right he imediately raises up because you focused the attention upward and then when you duck down and use left hook he immediately protects the body and you follow it up with a uppercut thats a knock out combination that set up the person for multiple power shots. Thats kata.

Look at how the gracies teach the self defense portion of their system. THEY USE KATA. Helio Gracie himself has said that kata is a essential part of the Gracie fighting system.
The fact that Oyama trained in Gojo Ryu does nothing to deny the fact that he stole his effective techniques from Muay Thai. If ancient Karate is so effective, why is the only effective branch of it a newly made discipline from the 1960s? That's because it's a knock off of Muay Thai, the actual and original effective ancient art. Kyokushin looks nothing like Gojo Ryu, its MUAY THAI TO THE DOT. At least the stuff that's successful in MMA and no rules competitions
is.. for a lot of the Karate only tournaments they'll revert back to the point-scoring karate styles and people will go "See! Kyokushin is karate!".

THIS, is what Gojo Ryu looks like:

YouTube - Kata Kanchin Vs. Kata Gojo Ryu

stiff, long and crappy katas, short punches with no power and no body weight behind them, short snappy kicks with no power or body weight behind them, and no real knees or elbows. Knees and elbows came to MMA from Muay Thai. Those pitter-patter punches and kicks don't hurt anyone, they just score points.

And no, boxing and KB don't use katas.. they use combinations (10-15 secs max). Yes, it makes sense to set up your next couple of moves with the current one, but not to memorize an entire 5 minute dance. Real fighting isn't that stiff or predictable.

Your history degree has nothing to do with the topic.. unless you majored in the history of martial arts? because you probably memorized the same medieval battles, cultures and traditions most of us college grads did and it doesn't mean you have any authority on this topic. Even if you did, it only qualifies you as an armchair expert who knows all MA theory and nothing about what really works (the biggest bane of martial arts). Not that I'm proud of it, but I grew up in a rough school where people got in fights all the time, and I learnt what works and what doesn't the hard way. And now, I've experimented with a bunch of different styles and compete in local MMA.

And Chuck Liddell's haymakers do NOT come from Koei Kan. No martial art teaches you to flail your arms like that. His fighting style is very unorthodox and all his own.. it's just chuck's pure fighters instinct that makes it work.

I could go on and on but it's clear you'll never see reason on this. Obviously you've put a lot of time and hard work into getting a Karate blackbelt and you could never accept that most of your hard work went to waste (at least in terms of being able to fight), so you'll defend it till your last breath. And that's the typical McDojo victim syndrome.

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Old 12-27-2006, 08:17 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddellianenko
The fact that Oyama trained in Gojo Ryu does nothing to deny the fact that he stole his effective techniques from Muay Thai. If ancient Karate is so effective, why is the only effective branch of it a newly made discipline from the 1960s? That's because it's a knock off of Muay Thai, the actual and original effective ancient art. Kyokushin looks nothing like Gojo Ryu, its MUAY THAI TO THE DOT. At least the stuff that's successful in MMA and no rules competitions
is.. for a lot of the Karate only tournaments they'll revert back to the point-scoring karate styles and people will go "See! Kyokushin is karate!".

THIS, is what Gojo Ryu looks like:

YouTube - Kata Kanchin Vs. Kata Gojo Ryu

stiff, long and crappy katas, short punches with no power and no body weight behind them, short snappy kicks with no power or body weight behind them, and no real knees or elbows. Knees and elbows came to MMA from Muay Thai. Those pitter-patter punches and kicks don't hurt anyone, they just score points.

And no, boxing and KB don't use katas.. they use combinations (10-15 secs max). Yes, it makes sense to set up your next couple of moves with the current one, but not to memorize an entire 5 minute dance. Real fighting isn't that stiff or predictable.

Your history degree has nothing to do with the topic.. unless you majored in the history of martial arts? because you probably memorized the same medieval battles, cultures and traditions most of us college grads did and it doesn't mean you have any authority on this topic. Even if you did, it only qualifies you as an armchair expert who knows all MA theory and nothing about what really works (the biggest bane of martial arts). Not that I'm proud of it, but I grew up in a rough school where people got in fights all the time, and I learnt what works and what doesn't the hard way. And now, I've experimented with a bunch of different styles and compete in local MMA.

And Chuck Liddell's haymakers do NOT come from Koei Kan. No martial art teaches you to flail your arms like that. His fighting style is very unorthodox and all his own.. it's just chuck's pure fighters instinct that makes it work.

I could go on and on but it's clear you'll never see reason on this. Obviously you've put a lot of time and hard work into getting a Karate blackbelt and you could never accept that most of your hard work went to waste (at least in terms of being able to fight), so you'll defend it till your last breath. And that's the typical McDojo victim syndrome.
I did a double major my first bachelors was in criminal justice and I Just finished up the course work in Asian studies. Specific course work I did relating to this topic are
History of Okinagwa
Intro to martial arts
Comprehensive analisis of Japanese martial arts
Feudal Japan
The chinese oakinagwan cultural exchange.

So yes my degree holds weight in this argument. Secoundly im not just an arm chair expert. I have years of martial arts expereince in Judo, Karare, Boxing, Muay Thai, and recently BJJ. I spent a good portion of my life over in germany because Im an army brat. The europeans specific holland has some of the best kick boxing instructors in the world and while I was little my dad made sure that I took advantage of the situatin even though i was to young to appreciate it.

I am by no means an arm chair expert. Ive practiced kyokoshin before and it isnt muay thai. Masoyama trained in karate and thats where the system comes from. The muay thai at the time was nothing like muay thai now. The thai boxing in thailand isnt that impressive. The best thai boxers in the world dont reside in thailand they are in europe. That trend and spread of martial arts when the skill of muay thai exploded happened in the 70s when the asian martial arts started to get a strong foot hold.


Also you criticize with out knowing much about kata. Kata isnt just about setting up moves it is teaching application. People use kata every day in combat. Parts of the kata are there to teach you how to react to certain situations not how to perform the whole kata from one given situation. Also their is other techniques hidden within the kata.

Take judo for example within the judo kata their are various techniques that arent taught in the system. One of those being the knee bars. Also the strikes of judo are taught within the kata.
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