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Old 11-25-2009, 08:10 AM   #91 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jcal View Post
Heres my problem with th disease concept. If a man has a heart attack and is told that he will live well if he eats the right foods BUT instead he continues to eat steaks pepperoni pizza and Haagen daaz because he likes it too much to stop (even knowing the consequences is he an addict or does he just overindulge in the wrong foods?
They would be classified as an addict. I'm no expert, but I do remember seeing shows on Discovery and TLC about overeating being a disease for some people. I honestly thought it was common knowledge nowadays that some people cannot stop eating no matter how hard they try. Hence the non-losing losers on The Biggest Loser, and 600-1000 pound people scattered around the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcal
Or this; Everytime a drug addict or alcoholic is gonna use he has to make a consience decision to do it. He has to make phone calls to the dealer or go looking on the street but in all that time he knows what hes doing and can stop. The problem is is he wants to use cause he likes it.
Every time a hungry person is going to eat he has to go out and find food, or hunt for it back in the olden days, and cook it. Like dave98 said in his earlier post, evidence has shown that for some addicts something triggers in their brain similar to the "hunger=eat" part.

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Originally Posted by swpthleg View Post
It occurs to me that many painkillers are reputed to have an appetite suppressant effect. IDK if this is relevant, but Karo is in a sport where weight cutting and making weight are of significant importance.
Karo is kinda pudgy, I think I remember him coming in a bit heavy on one occasion but I'm not positive. But I actually don't experience a lack of appetite when I take painkillers. I can bash food like no other when I'm on vikes or percs. But I tend not to do it often because it kind of kills the buzz.
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Old 11-25-2009, 05:42 PM   #92 (permalink)
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[QUOTE052548]It occurs to me that many painkillers are reputed to have an appetite suppressant effect. IDK if this is relevant, but Karo is in a sport where weight cutting and making weight are of significant importance.[/quote]
yea this one made me think... there are painkillers that suppress ones appetite. was this one reason why?
I don't know but i am sure it would help with the weight cutting

Dana White told the press today that Parisyan has had some issues for sometime now and that the UFC has gone out of their way to get Karo help. He was not specific about Karo's problems but said that this issue is not new.
It sounds like Dana White have tried to help Karo to what extent, I know this is not a new subject among fighters.
We has a greet and meet with a fighter whom will remain Unanimous and at a club after i was told by some of my people that this fighter was snorting rails off the table in a booth.... i don't know if, or what degree this is true i did not witness this. So iam sure this is nothing new for the UFC and they probably know some great programs and treatment centers.
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Old 11-30-2009, 05:19 AM   #93 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ARM*BAR View Post
I think your confusing the most dangerous drug to use versus the most addictive, withdrawl symptoms are not the only indicators for determining an addiction rating. Many people die from withdrawls from alcohol too any ways here are three links to reputable treatment centres/guides that have done studies.
http://www.michaelshouse.com/drug-ad...ugs-world.html
http://www.drugrehabtreatment.com/mo...ive-drugs.html
http://www.blurtit.com/q3150977.html
And don't get me wrong the jury is still out on a lot of these topics and nothing is written in stone
I have done eveything under the sun including smack and never really called it my drug of choice, and i am still hooked on caffiene
no, i'm not confusing the topics at all. And the jury is not out either; the only confusion i can see is a difference in definitions of addiction. as hex rei stated, addiction is usually defined by most as how much damage it does to you and those around you even when you want to stop. On this note, have you ever seen a homeless, emaciated, smoker who prostitutes themselves so that they can afford a gigantic nicotine habit? I certainly haven't.

and secondly, addiction does in fact have a stringent set of definitions by which most researchers, professors and specialists in the area abide. I won't list them here unless absolutely necessary, but the point is that your post made false assumptions as well as statements.

Also, for the record, opiate (including heroin) withdrawals cannot kill you. I don't know why you assumed that. It's simply a fact. you may kill yourself, but they cannot kill you alone. the only withdrawals that can kill are the ones from substances that primarily stimulate GABA receptors - 2 of the most well known of these are gamma-hydroxybutyric acid and ethanol. (GHB AND booze)

*edit for flexor -

Quote:
Originally Posted by flexor
addiction to pain killers only requires the addictee to say no.
Quote:
Originally Posted by swpthleg
That's a bit of an oversimplification.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flexor
Not really, Ive been through it.

Quitting smoking is a far more difficult task.
At no point during these posts that i have quoted did you state that this was purely your opinion. If people explain that you are incorrect, (and you are, because addiction is definable by most medical standards) don't fall back and say it's just your personal experience. You could have clarified that at the beginning, but instead, you trolled bullshit. so dont complain.

*double edit -

Quote:
Kicking addiction to anything is a highly individualized process from what I've read, heard, and seen in this thread.

FWIW, there are good studies to show that kicking cigarettes is as hard or harder than kicking heroin.
First point true, second point false. Well, half false. yes there are studies; no they are not 'good'; if by good you mean largely recognised.


From what i've seen in this thread, many people are arguing over oranges and apples. One one side, people who say that in their experience, they have quit other drugs but they are still smokers. fine. that doesn't mean that's smoking is harder to quit.
All it means is that there are much more reasons to stop doing opiates/opioids then there are to stop smoking.

On the other side are the people who are paraphrasing the accepted medical point of view.

Unless you clarify that your post is representative of your opinion only, then please don't argue against the correctness of something when you are really only representing your own personal view.
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Old 11-30-2009, 06:16 AM   #94 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MooJuice View Post
no, i'm not confusing the topics at all. And the jury is not out either; the only confusion i can see is a difference in definitions of addiction.


Also, for the record, opiate (including heroin) withdrawals cannot kill you. I don't know why you assumed that. It's simply a fact. you may kill yourself, but they cannot kill you alone. the only withdrawals that can kill are the ones from substances that primarily stimulate GABA receptors - 2 of the most well known of these are gamma-hydroxybutyric acid and ethanol. (GHB AND booze)
One of the best points made on this thread. I would like to add that withdraw from benzos can kill you in addition to alcohol. Addiction is the obsession and compulsion which controls an addict and their decisions, which would include narcotics, gambling, sex, food or really any unhealthy amount of anything in one's life. Being prescribed drugs by one doctor for treatment does not make you an addict. Like it was stated in previous posts, Karo had multiple issues and the drug use was just a symptom of them. I wish him well and hope this is the wake up call he needs. Unfortunately, for many addicts hitting bottom varies and includes jails, institutions and death. If the UFC and DW have repeatedly tried to help him, those may be in store for him.
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Old 11-30-2009, 01:28 PM   #95 (permalink)
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I hope Karo realizes those painkillers mess up your liver in the long run.....


your body has to constantly process and refine synthetic plant derivatives that are completely foreign

not smart
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Old 11-30-2009, 03:18 PM   #96 (permalink)
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Yup, heroin and crack won't kill you in all liklihood. Alcohol and benzo's are two that can have life-threatening withdrawals. That does not mean that you should not medically detox off of heroin. You COULD die if you are at-risk (poor health, advanced HIV disease, old age, etc). Plus it doesn't hurt to mitigate some of the nasty withdrawal affects with medical assistance. However alcohol and benzos could put one into a seizure that could kill. But this is not your recreational use. This is your alcoholic that most likely keeps 1/2 a fifth on standby just to wake up and drink to get through the night without the shakes. This is the alcoholic that has has delirium tremons upon alcohol cessation.

Anyway, I think the big takehome point is that addiction (in it's true sense of the meaning and word) is a powerfully obsessive and compulsive disease that requires very individualized and client-centered care. Hopefully the UFC does offer good help and access to treatment as it would be a shame if they didn't. Hell...Dana if you are reading this and want to get some good treatment get ahold of me and I will gladly represent the UFC
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Old 11-30-2009, 03:54 PM   #97 (permalink)
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I stuggled with drug addictions before...but for me the only addiction was to painkillers, i still love to smoke weed lol, anywho the pain sometimes from injuries can be super bad, for me I went through a windshield 2 years ago and got super addicted to vicodin..took me along time to get rid of them too had to go to rehab for a couple weeks and had 6 months of therapy..its serious they tear apart your liver if you take them uncontrollably like that..I really feel bad for him and I hope he can get back in the cage soon.
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Old 11-30-2009, 05:17 PM   #98 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MooJuice View Post
no, i'm not confusing the topics at all. And the jury is not out either; the only confusion i can see is a difference in definitions of addiction. as hex rei stated, addiction is usually defined by most as how much damage it does to you and those around you even when you want to stop. On this note, have you ever seen a homeless, emaciated, smoker who prostitutes themselves so that they can afford a gigantic nicotine habit? I certainly haven't.

and secondly, addiction does in fact have a stringent set of definitions by which most researchers, professors and specialists in the area abide. I won't list them here unless absolutely necessary, but the point is that your post made false assumptions as well as statements.

Also, for the record, opiate (including heroin) withdrawals cannot kill you. I don't know why you assumed that. It's simply a fact. you may kill yourself, but they cannot kill you alone. the only withdrawals that can kill are the ones from substances that primarily stimulate GABA receptors - 2 of the most well known of these are gamma-hydroxybutyric acid and ethanol. (GHB AND booze)

*edit for flexor -





At no point during these posts that i have quoted did you state that this was purely your opinion. If people explain that you are incorrect, (and you are, because addiction is definable by most medical standards) don't fall back and say it's just your personal experience. You could have clarified that at the beginning, but instead, you trolled bullshit. so dont complain.

*double edit -


First point true, second point false. Well, half false. yes there are studies; no they are not 'good'; if by good you mean largely recognised.


From what i've seen in this thread, many people are arguing over oranges and apples. One one side, people who say that in their experience, they have quit other drugs but they are still smokers. fine. that doesn't mean that's smoking is harder to quit.
All it means is that there are much more reasons to stop doing opiates/opioids then there are to stop smoking.

On the other side are the people who are paraphrasing the accepted medical point of view.

Unless you clarify that your post is representative of your opinion only, then please don't argue against the correctness of something when you are really only representing your own personal view.
Firstly, The jury is very much out on the this subject, the whole reason why we continue to see experts publish papers on these subjects.
Secondly, every 6.5 seconds a person is killed by smoking, and smoking related diseases and all their families are effected, people lose homes, cars, jobs, because of medical bills involved with smoking.
Lastly, Tell that to the more then half of the lung cancer patents who smoke and continue too even after finding out. Again smoking is a silent killer, because people think it has little or no effect on the day to day life, suddenly they are battling illness while their families watch helplessly. Addiction has a psychological component that needs to be addressed, we all think differently, grow up differently and so on. All of this plays a roll in our Addiction.
And everything i have said is backed up by hard data:


Heroin facts:
-In 2008, 453,000 Americans age 12 and older had abused heroin at least once in the year prior to being surveyed. Source: National Survey on Drug Use and Health (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Administration Web Site). The NIDA-funded 2008 Monitoring the Future Study showed that 0.9% of 8th graders, 0.8% of 10th graders, and 0.7% of 12th graders had abused heroin at least once in the year prior to being surveyed. Source: Monitoring the Future (University of Michigan Web Site)

-Addicts experience pain in the muscles and bones, diarrhea, chills, vomiting and insomnia. The worst of the symptoms of withdrawal occur 48 to 72 hours after taking the drug, and can linger
-Addicts who are in poor health are actually at risk of dying if the drug is taken away. However, a withdrawal is not as life-threatening or dangerous as barbiturate or alcohol withdrawal.
- 400 estimated deaths each year from heroin

Nicotine Facts:
In 2008, nearly 71 million Americans age 12 and older had used a tobacco product at least once in the month prior to being surveyed. Source: National Survey on Drug Use and Health (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Administration Web Site). The NIDA-funded 2008 Monitoring the Future Study showed that 6.8% of 8th graders, 12.3% of 10th graders, and 20.4% of 12th graders had used cigarettes and 3.5% of 8th graders, 5.0% of 10th graders, and 6.5% of 12th graders had used smokeless tobacco at least once in the month prior to being surveyed. And while rates of smoking have continued to decline to historically low levels the overall rate of smoking by Americans remains unacceptably high. Source: Monitoring the Future (University of Michigan Web Site)
-38,000 Americans died from second hand smoke
-90% of lung cancer patients are smokers
-443,000 people die a year from smoking in the US
- every 6.5 seconds a person dies from smoking worldwide

References:
http://www.drugabuse.gov/NIDAHome.html
http://www.who.int/en/
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Old 12-02-2009, 10:04 AM   #99 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by daveh98 View Post
I invite people to reference my post a few pages ago that breaks down addiction in a quick snappot. However there IS a genetic component to addiction. I am hearing people say it is either A or B, when in fact they both intertwine. Studies now show this by the following: Two people both of whom have never done any drugs; One person has a family history of addiction and the other does not. The person who has a family history of addiction has LESS dopamine receptors in the brain than the person with no family history. The reason being is that when you take a drug that greatly impacts the dopamine receptors in the brain (DA) then the person with addicted family (genetic) has LESS DA receptors and therefore they "latch" on to whatever they can get. The non-addicted brain will actually have a "flooded" response of dopamine; too much that will cause the person to get sicker on average. So that is one genetic component amongst various others.

Does that mean that all people from non-addicted families are free and clear? Of course not because of the nature of addiction and the power of the socialization process on one's values, beliefs and expectations. Just because one person has a family History (Hx) of cancer, does that mean they will have cancer themselves? No...just a higher probability.

So yes, addiction is a disease. Relapse occurs in addiction just as it occurs in cancer, diabetes, etc (reference my previous post a few pages back as to discuss the biological aspect of relapse and addiction/withdrawal). I agree that there is no "sure fire" way to treat it but treatment does work for some (just like any drug to treat any disease). The best is to be involved in CBT, medication management, AA/NA (for some), and developing oneself professionally in a structured environment. AA works just as well as any other SINGLE form of treatment which should show its positive use. It is shown to be less effective with younger people due to the propensity of adolescents to question power, boundaries and spirituality. But that is one of the only populations that is shown to not benefit from AA/NA. The big complaint about meetings is that most people hear about them in some form of residential inpatient setting: "Do 90 meetings in 90 days." That is BS because the Fellowship has NEVER been about treatment, is not considered treatment, and is only used as aftercare and to enhance one's self-concept.
Check this out: AAorangepapers.com I think it will give you deeper insight to AA and NA. Heres a taste




The Twelve Steps do not work as a program of recovery from drug or alcohol problems.

The A.A. failure rate ranges from 95% to 100%. Sometimes, the A.A. success rate is actually less than zero, which means that A.A. indoctrination is positively harmful to people, and prevents recovery. Some tests have shown that even receiving no treatment at all for alcoholism is much better than receiving A.A. treatment:

One of the most enthusiastic boosters of Alcoholics Anonymous, Professor George Vaillant of Harvard University, who is also a member of the Board of Trustees of Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. (AAWS), showed by his own 8 years of testing of A.A. that A.A. was worse than useless — that it didn't help the alcoholics any more than no treatment at all, and it had the highest death rate of any treatment program tested — a death rate that Professor Vaillant himself described as "appalling". While trying to prove that A.A. treatment works, Professor Vaillant actually proved that A.A. kills. After 8 years of A.A. treatment, the score with Dr. Vaillant's first 100 alcoholic patients was: 5 sober, 29 dead, and 66 still drinking.
(Nevertheless, Vaillant is still a Trustee of Alcoholics Anonymous, and he still wants to send all alcoholics to A.A. anyway, to "get an attitude change by confessing their sins to a high-status healer." That is cult religion, not a treatment program for alcoholism.)

The A.A. dropout rate is terrible. Most people who come to A.A. looking for help in quitting drinking are appalled by the narrow-minded atmosphere of fundamentalist religion and faith-healing. The A.A. meeting room has a revolving door. The therapists, judges, and parole officers (many of whom are themselves hidden members of A.A. or N.A.) continually send new people to A.A., but those newcomers vote with their feet once they see what A.A. really is. Even A.A.'s own triennial surveys, conducted by the A.A. headquarters (the GSO), say that:
81% of the newcomers are gone within 30 days,
90% are gone in 3 months, and
95% are gone at the end of a year.
That automatically gives A.A. a failure rate of at least 95%. But the GSO does not count all of those people who only attend a few meetings before quitting — they don't qualify as "members". (That amounts to "cherry-picking".) If we included them, then the numbers would be much worse
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Old 12-02-2009, 12:35 PM   #100 (permalink)
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12-step programs need a major overhaul, IMO. They have not kept up with the various extenuating circumstances.
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