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post #101 of 104 (permalink) Old 12-02-2009, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by swpthleg View Post
12-step programs need a major overhaul, IMO. They have not kept up with the various extenuating circumstances.
Yes, they are most certainly behind the times, they refuse to change the program even a little bit. Most people who stay for a long period of time beleive the AA doctrine is infallible and divinely inspired. Even though Bill Wilson himself didnt follow any of his own 12 steps. Sound like a typical cult leader? peace!
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post #102 of 104 (permalink) Old 12-02-2009, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ARM*BAR View Post
Firstly, The jury is very much out on the this subject, the whole reason why we continue to see experts publish papers on these subjects.
Secondly, every 6.5 seconds a person is killed by smoking, and smoking related diseases and all their families are effected, people lose homes, cars, jobs, because of medical bills involved with smoking.
Lastly, Tell that to the more then half of the lung cancer patents who smoke and continue too even after finding out. Again smoking is a silent killer, because people think it has little or no effect on the day to day life, suddenly they are battling illness while their families watch helplessly. Addiction has a psychological component that needs to be addressed, we all think differently, grow up differently and so on. All of this plays a roll in our Addiction.
And everything i have said is backed up by hard data:

Heroin facts:
-In 2008, 453,000 Americans age 12 and older had abused heroin at least once in the year prior to being surveyed. Source: National Survey on Drug Use and Health (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Administration Web Site). The NIDA-funded 2008 Monitoring the Future Study showed that 0.9% of 8th graders, 0.8% of 10th graders, and 0.7% of 12th graders had abused heroin at least once in the year prior to being surveyed. Source: Monitoring the Future (University of Michigan Web Site)

-Addicts experience pain in the muscles and bones, diarrhea, chills, vomiting and insomnia. The worst of the symptoms of withdrawal occur 48 to 72 hours after taking the drug, and can linger
-Addicts who are in poor health are actually at risk of dying if the drug is taken away. However, a withdrawal is not as life-threatening or dangerous as barbiturate or alcohol withdrawal.
- 400 estimated deaths each year from heroin

Nicotine Facts:
In 2008, nearly 71 million Americans age 12 and older had used a tobacco product at least once in the month prior to being surveyed. Source: National Survey on Drug Use and Health (Substance Abuse and Mental Health Administration Web Site). The NIDA-funded 2008 Monitoring the Future Study showed that 6.8% of 8th graders, 12.3% of 10th graders, and 20.4% of 12th graders had used cigarettes and 3.5% of 8th graders, 5.0% of 10th graders, and 6.5% of 12th graders had used smokeless tobacco at least once in the month prior to being surveyed. And while rates of smoking have continued to decline to historically low levels the overall rate of smoking by Americans remains unacceptably high. Source: Monitoring the Future (University of Michigan Web Site)
-38,000 Americans died from second hand smoke
-90% of lung cancer patients are smokers
-443,000 people die a year from smoking in the US
- every 6.5 seconds a person dies from smoking worldwide


You need to learn how to debate without relying on strawman arguments constantly.

millions of people die in car accidents each year.

only a few dozen die from climbing to the peak of everest.

therefore, by your logic, driving your car to work is much, much more dangerous then climbing mount everest.

you need to learn, when debating using figures, to use the only method that is accepted by most intelligent people: /per participant.

try applying that to your
Originally Posted by armbar
443,000 people die a year from smoking in the US
- every 6.5 seconds a person dies from smoking worldwide

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post #103 of 104 (permalink) Old 12-03-2009, 12:42 AM
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Even though this thread is a non UFC or MMA issue I am glad that the mods let it flow because there has been an excellent exchange of information and opinions. The hope would be that Karo somehow receive all of the support needed for his own personal recovery. That being said, I am absolutely amazed by the closed mindedness of some posters on this thread. For example, the "orange papers" is an online book and to suggest that NA even be part of that discussion is doing a disservice to anyone seeking treatment or help. World Services is a business (in both NA and AA) and has no affiliation other than providing a business service to 12 step groups. Alcohol kills, and even if some one quits drinking they may have very well already done irreversible damage and will die. All step programs pretty much make the same claim, that if someone is willing to surrender to the basic principles of the program, the can benefit with long term abstinence from using and a better quality of life. They also clearly state that it is not a religious program, rather a spiritual program. Someone who makes unfounded claims that it is a cult is just simply ignorant to the exact nature of the disease of addiction. A disease is classified as progressive, chronic, terminal and fatal a criteria of which addiction meets. The difference between addiction and say, diabetes, is that addiction is the only disease that is entirely self diagnosed, which is necessary for any sort of recovery. Unfortunately, those who do not recovery usually have denied some part of the total surrender to the disease. Its real hard for someone to admit to something that has carried a negative stigma in mainstream society for decades. It also requires change. There are seven changes which suggest that if you do one or all, you increase the chances of arresting the disease; Proffesional Help, Exercise, Diet, Daily Self Reflection, Prayer and/or Meditation, 12 Step Groups, Structure or Routine. Many people fail at recovery because they simply refuse to make any changes, other than try to stop using. I work in a treatment facility and some of the success we see is dictated by the alumni who return to the facility to share their experience. Those that stay clean all say that a key to their recovery was regular meeting attendance in a 12 step program. I can go online and find any number of resources which basically say the 12 step programs don't work, usually those sites have an agenda of their own, whether it be selling a book of the "cure" or offering their services of some kind. The most effective way found to arrest the disease of addiction and have long term abstinence from active using is found in NA, AA, GA, OEA, CA, CMA, etc.; all 12 step programs. There are people who have quit using never to pick up agin and have progressed in life without the aid of a 12 step program, however those numbers are minimal when compared to the tens of thousands of people who have found long term recovery in the fellowship of a program geared to recovery.

heres a few links:




I am in know way making an attack on someone's opinion, rather I am just providing another idea and perception to something that is insanity at best.

"One is not disturbed by events. Rather he is disturbed by his perception of those evets." -Epictetus

"Insanity is repeating the same thing over and over, expecting different results." -Albert Einstein

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post #104 of 104 (permalink) Old 12-03-2009, 08:42 AM
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It's continuing because everyone's playing nicely, and there are some excellent and insightful posts.

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