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Old 11-24-2009, 06:14 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Great posts in this thread daveh98 and MooJuice, thanks for your input
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Old 11-24-2009, 06:21 PM   #82 (permalink)
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Old 11-24-2009, 06:47 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Actually, AA has almost exactly the same rate of success as cold turkey. Some studies have shown that it may actually be worse than no treatment at all.
Yes Hex rei you are completely right. The upside is , AA is easily accessible, almost in every corner church basement. And its free. So instead of going to the bars or your "using" friends houses you can go to AA. Somewhat of a safe haven. Problem is when you join and get involved AA becomes very cult like! But there are a lot of cool people there too. When I was somewhat trying to quit using, I would go to a mtg. and go home after and I did not use that night. And 1 day turns into 30 days and then you start to believe you can actually quit. It took me about 5years in and out of the rooms to stop for good. Some people get it right away but I was double addicted, narcs and alcohol. I would have went to any support group to get sober and be with like minded people but AA was the only accessible one around.
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Old 11-24-2009, 06:57 PM   #84 (permalink)
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I invite people to reference my post a few pages ago that breaks down addiction in a quick snappot. However there IS a genetic component to addiction. I am hearing people say it is either A or B, when in fact they both intertwine. Studies now show this by the following: Two people both of whom have never done any drugs; One person has a family history of addiction and the other does not. The person who has a family history of addiction has LESS dopamine receptors in the brain than the person with no family history. The reason being is that when you take a drug that greatly impacts the dopamine receptors in the brain (DA) then the person with addicted family (genetic) has LESS DA receptors and therefore they "latch" on to whatever they can get. The non-addicted brain will actually have a "flooded" response of dopamine; too much that will cause the person to get sicker on average. So that is one genetic component amongst various others.

Does that mean that all people from non-addicted families are free and clear? Of course not because of the nature of addiction and the power of the socialization process on one's values, beliefs and expectations. Just because one person has a family History (Hx) of cancer, does that mean they will have cancer themselves? No...just a higher probability.

So yes, addiction is a disease.
Relapse occurs in addiction just as it occurs in cancer, diabetes, etc (reference my previous post a few pages back as to discuss the biological aspect of relapse and addiction/withdrawal). I agree that there is no "sure fire" way to treat it but treatment does work for some (just like any drug to treat any disease). The best is to be involved in CBT, medication management, AA/NA (for some), and developing oneself professionally in a structured environment. AA works just as well as any other SINGLE form of treatment which should show its positive use. It is shown to be less effective with younger people due to the propensity of adolescents to question power, boundaries and spirituality. But that is one of the only populations that is shown to not benefit from AA/NA. The big complaint about meetings is that most people hear about them in some form of residential inpatient setting: "Do 90 meetings in 90 days." That is BS because the Fellowship has NEVER been about treatment, is not considered treatment, and is only used as aftercare and to enhance one's self-concept.
If its a disease how do you go about treating it? If your like most EXPERTS youll tell me I need a spiritual awakening. seeing addiction is a disease then wouldnt bieng addicted to spending money be a disease or masterbation or porn or girls or food or anything, how do you distinguish the differnce between addiction and overindulging? Not trying to start an arguement but I for 1 have never bought into that(well its not my fault) its my disease bullshit.
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Old 11-24-2009, 08:10 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MooJuice View Post
While much of this thread contains brilliant pieces of logic, deduction and solid information, there is quite a lot of misinformation mixed in as well.


i have been an IV heroin user, a casual social opiate taker, a social smoker, a non smoker, and a 2.5 pack-a-day smoker. Not only this, but i have been to rehab three times, (totalling many months at $550 a day) and have done unsupervised detoxes from nicotine and opiates more than a dozen times each. to top it all off, I have done two years of a professional nursing degree and have taken my umat test, which enabled me to start studying medicine at the begginning of this yeah. (so next year i will begin my second year of medicine with 2 years nursing already under my belt)

in order to mentally constrain myself from going off my dial, i will simply make a few points which hopefully may let the moronic posters in this thread see a bit more clearly.

quitting nicotine is nowhere even close to being as hard as quitting a serious opiate habit. As a previous poster mentioned, it can seem harder because cigarettes are much more proliferant, as well as being socially more acceptable. somebody who is quitting smoking has to walk past shops selling their substance of addiction every day, not to mention seeing other people smoking cigarettes.

this does not mean that or that etc etc etc etc.

again, i will not go into the neurology of it, but opiate addiction hijacks the midbrain and makes it just like daveh98 said. it becomes a primal, natural instinct to want the substance. there is little element of conscious choice. plus obvious the issue of withdrawals is literally comical, i have been through opiate withdrawals that smokers couldn't even try to imagine in their darkest nightmares.

to re-iterate what others have said also, nicotine withdrawals versus opiate withdrawals is almost laughabe.

to sum up, imagine if the roles were reversed, and a large percentage of the population smoked heroin regularly, including on their lunchbreaks, at parties etc, and it was not illegal nor heavily frowned upon. not only this, but nearly every single shop, whether it be for groceries or alcohol etc, sold the heroin and the foil to smoke it off - for only the cost of a Subway roll.

however, then imagine that cigarettes are illegal, hardly anybody smokes them, they have one of the largest social stigmas of any substance, and the only way to find them is to sneakily get them through a friend of a friend, and even then, you are paying ridiculous prices for them.


then factor in the withdrawals, the psychological needle addiction, and everything else that i havent mentioned.


trust me, nicotine the chemical is not more addictive then dihydromorphine. (heroin) - nor any other opiate; all the way down to weak little codeine.

if anybody on this forum still thinks that nicotine is more chemically addictive, factoring out all of the other social, economical and multiple other factors, please post in this thread. I need to know if anybody exists that could really be that ignorant.



otherwise, i wish karo the very best; i just wish that he had not waited until the very last minute to actually cancel.

thats all for now, Moo.

*edit for spelling, and to confirm that daveh98 is correct in that modern medicine views chemical addiction as a disease which can be managed and treated etc, and (if you're very lucky,) cured. The similie that my rehab psychologists and more recently my uni lecturers are using is that it's not unlike diabetes.
I think your confusing the most dangerous drug to use versus the most addictive, withdrawl symptoms are not the only indicators for determining an addiction rating. Many people die from withdrawls from alcohol too any ways here are three links to reputable treatment centres/guides that have done studies.
http://www.michaelshouse.com/drug-ad...ugs-world.html
http://www.drugrehabtreatment.com/mo...ive-drugs.html
http://www.blurtit.com/q3150977.html
And don't get me wrong the jury is still out on a lot of these topics and nothing is written in stone
I have done eveything under the sun including smack and never really called it my drug of choice, and i am still hooked on caffiene
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Old 11-24-2009, 08:13 PM   #86 (permalink)
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how do you distinguish the differnce between addiction and overindulging?
the level of damage it does to your life, yourself, and those around you?
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Old 11-24-2009, 09:14 PM   #87 (permalink)
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If its a disease how do you go about treating it? If your like most EXPERTS youll tell me I need a spiritual awakening. seeing addiction is a disease then wouldnt bieng addicted to spending money be a disease or masterbation or porn or girls or food or anything, how do you distinguish the differnce between addiction and overindulging? Not trying to start an arguement but I for 1 have never bought into that(well its not my fault) its my disease bullshit.
I believe the concept of addiction being a disease is not limited to drug users. There are people out there who are severely addicted to food as well. There are also a lot of extreme sex addicts (ever seen the movie Choke? It's a good one).
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Old 11-24-2009, 09:35 PM   #88 (permalink)
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I believe the concept of addiction being a disease is not limited to drug users. There are people out there who are severely addicted to food as well. There are also a lot of extreme sex addicts (ever seen the movie Choke? It's a good one).
Heres my problem with th disease concept. If a man has a heart attack and is told that he will live well if he eats the right foods BUT instead he continues to eat steaks pepperoni pizza and Haagen daaz because he likes it too much to stop (even knowing the consequences is he an addict or does he just overindulge in the wrong foods? Or this; Everytime a drug addict or alcoholic is gonna use he has to make a consience decision to do it. He has to make phone calls to the dealer or go looking on the street but in all that time he knows what hes doing and can stop. The problem is is he wants to use cause he likes it. I would sure have a hard time telling someone in a hospitol Dying of lets say leukemia that the person in the bed next to them has a disease too but he would be OK if he would just stop drinking, but he chooses not to.
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Old 11-24-2009, 10:08 PM   #89 (permalink)
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I believe the concept of addiction being a disease is not limited to drug users. There are people out there who are severely addicted to food as well. There are also a lot of extreme sex addicts (ever seen the movie Choke? It's a good one).
Yea your right and imagine being addicted to food, we have to eat or we die so imagine trying to kick that addiction.

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Heres my problem with th disease concept. If a man has a heart attack and is told that he will live well if he eats the right foods BUT instead he continues to eat steaks pepperoni pizza and Haagen daaz because he likes it too much to stop (even knowing the consequences is he an addict or does he just overindulge in the wrong foods? Or this; Everytime a drug addict or alcoholic is gonna use he has to make a consience decision to do it. He has to make phone calls to the dealer or go looking on the street but in all that time he knows what hes doing and can stop. The problem is is he wants to use cause he likes it. I would sure have a hard time telling someone in a hospitol Dying of lets say leukemia that the person in the bed next to them has a disease too but he would be OK if he would just stop drinking, but he chooses not to.
i refer Dave98 post 1 or 2 pgs ago it will break down why... I can tall your not an addict i can understand why you would not get it.... because it is insane and no sane person would hurt themselves on purpose, so something has to be wrong with them. Addiction is a mental disease, and why they call it a disease, is part of the cycle is that we keep going back even though we no the dangers DAVE98 explains it well, how this urge to use is built in our system like eating . see when average person has a few drinks they feel light headed so they slow down or stop, but for me i need more and more the feeling is different it makes me feel better like medicine and the more i use the better i feel eventually i use too much and it starts to affect my body and mind so ineed to use more to fix that problem...its crazy mean i am not a stupid guy i own a home a business but yet many people like me do this... but thats the nature of the disease and thatss why the World Health Organization recognizes it as a disease
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Old 11-24-2009, 11:47 PM   #90 (permalink)
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It occurs to me that many painkillers are reputed to have an appetite suppressant effect. IDK if this is relevant, but Karo is in a sport where weight cutting and making weight are of significant importance.
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