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post #21 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-10-2009, 02:25 PM
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Agreed. While we're at it, legalize knees to the head of a downed opponent.
Agreed, especially the one hand on the mat makes a guy down bullsh**. It completely gives an advantage to wrestlers, which I think (and I know plenty of people who agree) is the biggest problem with the UFC right now. It is too easy for wrestlers to take down a guy and control him there for the short 15 minute fight. Add knees to a downed opponent and you add a whole new weapon to use during a sprawl.

Whatever, I'm wasting my time. They will never change this rule, nor probably the elbow rule.


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post #22 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-10-2009, 02:34 PM
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i'm not sure if this was noticed but in Diego's highlights he pretty clearly knees a guy while he's down. If you go to pancrase.org and view the first part of the UFC 107 preview at about the 10:00 mark he does this....im not sure how differentiates from what Johnson did. If someone could elaborate I would appreciate it.
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post #23 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-10-2009, 02:38 PM
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http://mmajunkie.com/news/17153/ask-...rtial-arts.mma

Dr. Benjamin from mmajunkie thinks they should be legal too.

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This past weekend at The Ultimate Fighter 10 Finale, Jon Jones was cruising to a co-main-event victory before he caught opponent Matt Hamill with illegal elbow strikes.

The blows resulted in Jones suffering his first career loss – via disqualification – and shined a light on the concept of illegal "12-to-6" elbow strikes.

In his latest "Ask the Doc" installment, Dr. Johnny Benjamin weighs in on the topic and gives a surprising recommendation on how to simplify the referees' job and improve fighter safety all at the time.


* * * *

What are the biggest risks of 12-to-6 elbows, and do you believe they should be illegal in mixed martial arts competitions? – Blaize Richardson

This has become a very popular question after the destruction of Matt Hamill by Jon "Bones" Jones during the The Ultimate Finale 10 Finale. It's a shame that Bones was disqualified for illegal blows because prior to that, the outcome of the fight was no longer in question.

I also heard Joe Rogan comment that 12-to-6 elbows were banned for non-medical reasons. He went on to say that the ban was developed when one of the original architects of the modern rules for MMA witnessed a demonstration by a martial artist breaking blocks of ice with elbow strikes.

I have no way to check the accuracy of this statement, but I also have no reason to doubt it. Rogan is a very knowledgeable and credible source.

That being said, an elbow strike delivered by a grounded fighter from a 12-o'clock position is not significantly more or less dangerous than a blow delivered from an 11-o'clock position. Furthermore, with mounted fighters intelligently defending themselves by squirming, switching hips, covering up, etc., it is an extremely difficult rule to enforce properly . I emphasize the phrase intelligently defending because if a fighter is unable to do so, as per the rules, the fight should be halted.

The theoretical concern from a medical viewpoint is the blow pinning the head to the ground, and therefore, not allowing the body/neck to effectively dissipate the force.

I believe that all elbows to legal areas of the head of a grounded opponent should be considered legal. It could then be more uniformly enforced by the referee. The ref would consider if the area of the strike was legal (not back of the head, etc.), if the recipient is intelligently defending himself, and whether the recipient sustained too much damage to allow the fight to continue.

When you think about it, that is a lot for the ref to process in the heat of battle. Relieving the burden of requiring the ref to assess the angle of contact in a fast-paced and fluid situation creates greater consistency in enforcement and ultimately better fighter safety.

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post #24 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-10-2009, 02:49 PM
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Oh yeah, the Silva elbows to Lutter were similar - damn they were brutal.



Hmmm ... I'm actually not sure what the '12-6' elbows are considered, I mean logically being dropped down are going to carry more force, but man those elbows by Diego/A.Silva were pretty brutal. Then again, they were being dropped on the top of the head and not the face like Hamill copped. Argh I don't know lmao ...

On a side note, IMO '12-6' elbows are the same as '9-3' really.
They aren't. A 12-6 elbow from the mount would be an elbow straight down. a 12-6 elbow from the bottom would have to be literally straight up from the floor with no noticable curve and I don't see how that's really feasible. Silva's, for example, were definitely not going straight up at Hendo's head, they had a lot of motion parallel to the floor.

9-3 is an elbow that is not straight up or down, but comes in at a noticable angle.

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post #25 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-10-2009, 03:38 PM
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im pretty sure diego's elbows vs guida were illegal, because he was throwing them straight in front of him. Silva was throwing them at an angle to lutter's head.

and about sanchez kneeing (riggs i think) in the head while he was down, i think he picked his hand up right before he was kneed. (i might be wrong though)

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post #26 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-10-2009, 03:46 PM
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Another issue is that the opponents head is on the mat, with nowhere to go.

When you' re hit in the head standing your head snaps back, which lessens the force of the blow. With your head pinned to the ground and an elbow coming straight down, there is a lot more force because.

It's like taking a punch and then taking the same punch with your head againts a wall, for example. Definitely more force and definitely mroe damage.

Thant makes the 12-6 elbows to a downed opponent much more dangerous.
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post #27 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-10-2009, 04:28 PM
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Another issue is that the opponents head is on the mat, with nowhere to go.

When you' re hit in the head standing your head snaps back, which lessens the force of the blow. With your head pinned to the ground and an elbow coming straight down, there is a lot more force because.

It's like taking a punch and then taking the same punch with your head againts a wall, for example. Definitely more force and definitely mroe damage.

Thant makes the 12-6 elbows to a downed opponent much more dangerous.
That doesn't actually explain why 12-6 would be more dangerous than 9-3, assuming both heads were on the mat.

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post #28 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-10-2009, 04:32 PM
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That doesn't actually explain why 12-6 would be more dangerous than 9-3, assuming both heads were on the mat.
yeah but its pretty damn hard to throw a 9-3 from on top, thats the difference, every example of 9-3 elbows has been from the bottom IE the victims head was NOT on the mat

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post #29 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-10-2009, 04:37 PM
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That doesn't actually explain why 12-6 would be more dangerous than 9-3, assuming both heads were on the mat.
Think about it... If the elbow is coming down 9-3 at an angle the head/neck will rotate a little when the elbow strikes the head reducing at least some of the force. 12-6 blow has no angle so it really is more damaging because the head cant rotate.

Think about when you hit someone with a right hook. The head/neck rotates some reducing the blow. Same thing with a 9-3 elbow strike. Obviously I know it the head/neck won't rotate that significantly on the ground but it def helps some where as the 12-6 is straight down, the head/neck is getting hit straight on with the mat behind it so its obviously a stronger strike imo..
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post #30 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-10-2009, 04:59 PM
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yeah but its pretty damn hard to throw a 9-3 from on top, thats the difference, every example of 9-3 elbows has been from the bottom IE the victims head was NOT on the mat
I'll agree, but what about 10-4? or 11-5? those are just as legal from the top as 9-3 but according to the Dr above, they are not less damaging than 12-6.

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Think about it... If the elbow is coming down 9-3 at an angle the head/neck will rotate a little when the elbow strikes the head reducing at least some of the force. 12-6 blow has no angle so it really is more damaging because the head cant rotate.
That's not what he said, so my comment to him still stands. Let's discuss your points though.

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Think about when you hit someone with a right hook. The head/neck rotates some reducing the blow. Same thing with a 9-3 elbow strike. Obviously I know it the head/neck won't rotate that significantly on the ground but it def helps some where as the 12-6 is straight down, the head/neck is getting hit straight on with the mat behind it so its obviously a stronger strike imo..
I don't really see much head rotation in a typical 9-3 strike, they usually come across the face so rotation would be minimal imho.

A better argument would be that a 9-3 cross elbow strike is not going to transfer all its force to the face due to its grazing nature (some momentum is retained as the elbow continues past the face) whereas a 12-6 could be completely stopped by the head thus the head is absorbing all the force. But I seriously doubt an 11-5 (a legal strike) would be much different in terms of damage than a 12-6, as Dr Benjamin pointed out.

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