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Old 12-13-2009, 09:02 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Lets be honest here, GSP fights guys that are smaller than him, anderson silva does the same, the HW fighters are to dispersed for fedor to be declared p4p the greatest(despite his awesomeness) BJ penn Is the one guy that would fight king Kong if he had to! The dude is so good at his weight that he has to fight above his weight for a challenge. He relies on pure skill which is a rarity nowadays rather than a massive weight cut.

How anyone can say he's not the P4P best is beyond me
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Old 12-13-2009, 09:04 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Bj is 0-3 in his last 3 WW fights... that hardly screams p4p champ to me. He has been doing well at LW, but GSP is fighting better competition at WW, and GSP also destroyed Bj the last time they fought... weight difference or not, I don't see how you can rank Bj above GSP when he got beat that bad.
Im not getting into the whole cheating aspect and so on however the laws of fighting were changed after that last gsp fight. I still believe gsp would have won the fight however what his corner men did gives the other fighter an excuse. Did gsp really win the first fight? In your honest opinion? His 0-3 comes from fighting the 2 greatest ever w/w's. Imo hes 1-1 with both of those fighters and the Bj Penn fighting back then is not the same Bj penn fighting now. His conditioning seems to be the best it has ever been. Last night we saw him after 5 rounds and he seemed as fresh as when he started.

Im positive if gsp went up to 185 and fought the two best fighters there (hendo/silva) both would murder him. If i seem a little biased then i admit im really not as i love both gsp and Penn, i just feel Penn's achievements in mma surpass that of Gsp, however Gsp has a very long career ahead of him.
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Old 12-13-2009, 09:09 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Im positive if gsp went up to 185 and fought the two best fighters there (hendo/silva) both would murder him. If i seem a little biased then i admit im really not as i love both gsp and Penn, i just feel Penn's achievements in mma surpass that of Gsp, however Gsp has a very long career ahead of him.
True 100% its kind of sad that bJ penn's legacy gets detracted from because fights guys that are much bigger than him instead of playing it safe. How many current UFC champs can honestly clain that they rely on their skill rather than their size advantage? Apart from penn and machida there aint anyone else....all need a substantial size diiferential.
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Old 12-13-2009, 09:17 AM   #14 (permalink)
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if P4P means you can beat anyone in your own weight class plus most guys in weight classes above you, then I think it's Fedor, then BJ, then Anderson, then GSP, then Machida.

I'm not really positive what the P4P rankings are based on and never have been as long as I've been watching MMA. They're very subjective. It's not really anything you can prove, it's just based on personal opinions and speculation.


Fedor can and has beaten everyone he has faced that have all been bigger than him, IMO he's a clear cut #1 for the rest of history.

BJ is in the lowest weight class of the top 5 so IMO he has more guys to beat from higher weight classes. He could beat 95% of the WWs, maybe 75% of MWs, and perhaps even a couple LHWs.

Anderson is a big MW but he has cleaned out his division and has been undefeated since trying LHW out so he has credentials to be considered in the top 3.

GSP has never fought anyone bigger than him except Alves. GSP consistently fights guys his own size or smaller. There's no evidence from his career that I can base off of to say that he is capable of beating most MWs, LHWs, or any HWs at all. But he certainly has the ability, it's just there's no past history to go on to say for sure.

Machida still needs to rack up some more wins before he surpasses anyone on the list. He is a relatively small-average sized LHW so the guys he is fighting are usually naturally bigger than him, so that's a plus. He has the ability to beat HWs for sure, but we can't say with certainty until we see him at least try, kinda like GSPs issue.
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Old 12-13-2009, 09:23 AM   #15 (permalink)
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True 100% its kind of sad that bJ penn's legacy gets detracted from because fights guys that are much bigger than him instead of playing it safe. How many current UFC champs can honestly clain that they rely on their skill rather than their size advantage? Apart from penn and machida there aint anyone else....all need a substantial size diiferential.
I have never actually thought of it like that, but you make a good point. I think Fedor is a great example of what your saying, he could make 205 and be a huge 205er however he stays at h/w and does what he does. I think Silva can be added to your list, especially after what he did to Griffin. But your right, how often does Penn has a size advantage when he fights, i mean the guy has fought at h/w and hes what 5ft 9 and Joe rogan claimed he could make 145 yesterday!!!

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if P4P means you can beat anyone in your own weight class plus most guys in weight classes above you, then I think it's Fedor, then BJ, then Anderson, then GSP, then Machida.

I'm not really positive what the P4P rankings are based on and never have been as long as I've been watching MMA. They're very subjective. It's not really anything you can prove, it's just based on personal opinions and speculation.
Intersting point you make.I agree with your rankings list above in terms of who could go up a weight and do what they do, maybe i would put Silva ahead of Penn.

I think when Gsp beats Hardy, its time for him to move up
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Old 12-13-2009, 09:29 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Na Lyoto is definitley ahead of BJ because Penn already lost to him and would be outclassed again if they fight. So he is p4p better not only because he has a weight advantage over BJ!

My rankings are like this in the UFC

1.Anderson Silva
2.Lyoto Machida
3.GSP
4.BJ Penn

but the thing about BJ Penn is this guy fight's everybody in every weight class. So in my opinion he deserves to be called the best p4p in the World even through he isn't. Nobody has and will ever do this.

Just as an example look at GSP how damn scared he is to move up an face Anderson. That's the difference between those two, BJ takes risks that makes him the greatest ever.

Last edited by BobbyCooper : 12-13-2009 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 12-13-2009, 09:32 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I think when ppl talk about p4p they place an emphasis on skill set rather than their weight. If all thing being equal and all fighters such as penn, fedor, silva, gsp, even lesnar where the same weight how would you rank them?

Lesnar simply despite his great wrestling skills relies on his disproportionate size advantage and if all things were equal he wouldnt make the top 4.

Anderson Silva? Great fighter but lets face it he again relies on a size advantage despite his great striking and takedown defence....if his skills where tested at LHW would he be as effective? Simply put we cant know for sure so that lowers his rating imho.

GSP again great skills best in his weightclass, but again relies on a size differential.

Fedor, is a legend fights guys that are bigger than him could prob cut to LHW if he wanted, however the only thing that would prevent me from putting him numero uno is the fact that the HW division across mma is too dispersed.

Bj penn fights at his natural weight, his take down defence grappling stand up is superior to everyone in his weight class. Even guys like sanchez (who after weighing in at 155 got up to 167 in a couple of hours)



So i'd put it

Penn
Silva
Fedor
Gsp
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Old 12-13-2009, 09:41 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I think when ppl talk about p4p they place an emphasis on skill set rather than their weight. If all thing being equal and all fighters such as penn, fedor, silva, gsp, even lesnar where the same weight how would you rank them?

Lesnar simply despite his great wrestling skills relies on his disproportionate size advantage and if all things were equal he wouldnt make the top 4.

Anderson Silva? Great fighter but lets face it he again relies on a size advantage despite his great striking and takedown defence....if his skills where tested at LHW would he be as effective? Simply put we cant know for sure so that lowers his rating imho.

GSP again great skills best in his weightclass, but again relies on a size differential.

Fedor, is a legend fights guys that are bigger than him could prob cut to LHW if he wanted, however the only thing that would prevent me from putting him numero uno is the fact that the HW division across mma is too dispersed.

Bj penn fights at his natural weight, his take down defence grappling stand up is superior to everyone in his weight class. Even guys like sanchez (who after weighing in at 155 got up to 167 in a couple of hours)



So i'd put it

Penn
Silva
Fedor
Gsp
I can agree with most of that, except at least switch Fedor and Anderson. I think you did forget to mention that Andy is 2-0 at LHW sounds like by your wording you weren't aware of that. But Fedor is undefeated in his career and has beat 7 guys who have been UFC heavyweight champs....not to mention he is undefeated in over 30 fights against guys bigger than him. Good post though
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Old 12-13-2009, 10:38 AM   #19 (permalink)
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I don't really get people placing Machida so high in the P4P list. The whole concept of making a list like this has way too many conflicting arguements for why one fighter is above another... However to me A.Silva, GSP & Penn can be seen as clear cut top 3 imo because of the way they completely destroyed everyone in their weight class. Machida on the other hand hasn't been the champ all that long and he didn't look a class above his division in his last fight with Shogun in fact he looked far from it.

Providing GSP smashes through Hardy i think he should go to 185 and fight a highly ranked MW so his skill/size/athleticism can truely be tested.
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Old 12-13-2009, 10:40 AM   #20 (permalink)
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I don't really get people placing Machida so high in the P4P list. The whole concept of making a list like this has way too many conflicting arguements for why one fighter is above another... However to me A.Silva, GSP & Penn can be seen as clear cut top 3 imo because of the way they completely destroyed everyone in their weight class. Machida on the other hand hasn't been the champ all that long and he didn't look a class above his division in his last fight with Shogun in fact he looked far from it.

Providing GSP smashes through Hardy i think he should go to 185 and fight a highly ranked MW so his skill/size/athleticism can truely be tested.
I agree, but who would you put as #4? I might have said Frankie Edgar had he not lost to Maynard.
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