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What is a takedown worth?

3K views 37 replies 17 participants last post by  Roflcopter 
#1 ·
watched the Rashad Silva fight and like many others i was left wondering over the value of a takedown. i'm not a rashad fan but he controlled the first 2 rounds for sure with this wrestling although landed nothing after the takedowns... the most significant damage was done in the 3rd by silva (a la vera vs. couture). so my question is why are takedowns valued so highly if there are no shots landed after?
 
#2 ·
Mainly octagon control, I suppose; if a fighter is able to dictate where the fight takes place on a consistent bases, then that is worth gravy in the judges eyes. And while I agree that Thiago did the most damage in the third round, the MMA aspect of Rashad outgrappling Thiago the entire fight (to which I was surprised, Rashads wrestling looked great) is also worthy of some clout.

I will say that If Rashad fought Rampage with that same gameplan (though he probably wouldn't) he would have completely gassed by the third round if he wasn't already KO'd by then.
 
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#3 ·
As AceCombat said, it's control. Rashad had a better position and is offering at least some offense. When Thiago was on his back, what the hell was he doing? He was standing up and that's it. And obviously Thiago did more damage, but that's NOT how UFC fights are scored. They're scored on a round-to-round basis and Rashad controlled rounds 1 and 2 while Thiago did nothing. It's not so much that takedowns are over-valued, it's the control aspect that many feel can be over-valued. The scoring system in general is very flawed.
 
#4 ·
I dont think a take down should be worth anything if the guy can get back up fast like thiago did!

In fact i see it as thiago having the octogan contorl
 
#8 ·
N1™;1083848 said:
even bas rutten agrees with this. rashad won r 1 and 2 no doubt but i felt sorry for thiago cuz rashad did nothing but taking him down and imo avoiding the fight
Thats right! But Rashad is a Wrestler thats his best weapon, I am so glad that he finally realised that his striking isn't at the top. He won 1, 2 easily and did it on a very smart way, not very entertaining for us but productive for him. ;)
 
#10 ·
Rounds 1 and 2 were correctly scored 10-9 for Rashad, he controlled the fight with takedowns and wrestling but failed to do any damage. However judging in my opinion needs more nuance then the almost standard 10-9 result. You could make the argument that round 3 could have gone 10-8 for Silva since he clearly had Rashad hurt with rashad failing to do anything significant in return wich would make the fight a draw.

Im not saying thats how the fight should have been judged, in this case I would be equally content with 29-28 as with 28-28 decision, I see arguments for judges going both ways, however id like 10-8 to be a much more common result in judging. That would allow more fair scoring when a fight has two close rounds for fighter A follow by a dominant round for fighter B for example.
 
#12 ·
Exactly, thats what I mentioned in the pre/post fight Rashad vs. Thaigo thread. Judges should be allowed to score a 10:8 for such a round like Thiago did, even through I have to admit that he must have been doing a littel bit more to get 10:8. The half point scoring systeme would be fine. We need someting for the judges, it can't always be 10:9! Judges are afraid of giving a 10:8 round wich shouldn't be the case and wich the half point scoring systeme would help to fix.
 
#13 ·
Exactly. But it dosent matter if you call it 10-8.5 or 10-8 or 2-0, a whole point of half point, the result is the same. Judges need new directives on how to base the magnitude on scores. In reality right now there is really only one result possible (exept for rare cases) and that is 10-9, you can call that 1-0, 1000-1 or simply a win, but its still basically one possible outcome of rounds as it is now. I think you, me, and many other agree that this needs to change.
 
#14 ·
Essentially what Ace said highlights exactly why Rashad won this fight. I didn't enjoy Rashad's performance at all, however, for a couple of reasons.

First, Rashad's game plan appeared to me more of one that prevented any action from occurring for as long as he could, with clinch work and take downs. What bothered me was not the strategy of outpointing an opponent, but the clear desire to not even engage. It's not like Rashad was waiting for a good opportunity to counter strike Thiago, or even pound him out on the ground. His strategy was simply to pin Thiago down and prevent him from doing as much as he could, until the fight ended -- knowing that if he did so, he would win on points. It's hard for me to enjoy a fighter who lacks the ability to end a fight, and even more, shows no interest in ending a fight. I think Joe Rogan said it well ... Rashad can't feel too good about that win.
 
#15 ·
Essentially what Ace said highlights exactly why Rashad won this fight. I didn't enjoy Rashad's performance at all, however, for a couple of reasons.
Haha I must be the only one who enjoys the takedowns and pure wrestling aspects of a fight. A well executed takedown to me is as fun to watch as a sub/nice punch! A lot of people like watching pure wrestling aswell, so wrestling with punches is even better even if noone is finished.
 
#16 ·
I think the concept of octagon control via top position or keeping someone pinned against the cage is the main problem. Would it be so awful if we threw out octagon control and went entirely with effective striking, perceived damage, and attempted submissions?

As it is, it's far too easy (and increasingly more common) for a wrestler to win via "octagon control" while making the fight boring, inflicting virtually no damage, and running out the clock on fighters who are trying to engage.
 
#20 ·
I really dislike when people say this as the fact submission attempts are scored is just as faulty, we see people use submission attempts all the time as a distraction to gain an opening to either attack with another sub or improve position. Since they are not really intended to as a submission why should they be worth points? Then you have strikes that aren't meant to do damage but rather to set up a TD or a big shot, should they count since they don't do damage?
 
#23 ·
I would also like to point out that Rashad's dumbest act last night may have been when he had the opportunity to take Silva down in the middle of the cage he had him up but instead of slamming him down in the middle of the cage he instead basically carried him across the cage and ran into the cage wall, WTF?
 
#24 ·
Nothing, but if you can stop the opponent by do anything to you the entire round by laying on him unfortunately you win.

The fight for sure should've been a draw, but no way 3 judges score a round 10-8, especially considering Thiago didn't really dominate it, a la GSP-Fitch round 1
 
#28 ·
Nothing, but if you can stop the opponent by do anything to you the entire round by laying on him unfortunately you win.

The fight for sure should've been a draw, but no way 3 judges score a round 10-8, especially considering Thiago didn't really dominate it, a la GSP-Fitch round 1

Are you saying a take down isn't worth anything in Mixed Martial Arts????:confused02: Like Rashad taking Thiago down last night didn't score or impose effective position??
 
#36 ·
Ah, but see, that's the problem for me...Rashad does 1, maybe two decent slams in a round and then is content to just negate Thiago's offense via LnP and clinch to kill the round. Never has Thiago in real danger. To me, it's more of a "fighting not to lose" strategy as opposed to "fighting to win". To me, this is not compelling. To me, the winner should be the guy who 1) inflicted the most damage, 2) had his opponent in the most danger (KO or submission, 3) made his opponent tap out, or 4) any combination of the above and I want to see a scoring system that can reflect this.

My head agrees that Rashad outscored Thiago. My gut tells me that Rashad didn't actually win that fight. That's the best way I can explain it. :dunno:

Ok, I'm spent on this topic.
 
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