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Old 01-03-2007, 10:37 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Good post and repped
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Old 01-03-2007, 11:09 AM   #22 (permalink)
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People miss the point so much as soon as you say anything about Tito. Why is he so highly regarded? He's a fan favorite, nothing more. He was a champ, years ago, in a different world of MMA.

Tito is great because:
"He's Tough"
"He has the best cardio"
"He fights anybody"
"He destroyed Shamrock"
"He took his loss like a man"

Tito is not great because:
Couldn't finish Patrick Cote in a short notice fight
Shamrock was a legend, not a fighter
Got spanked by Chuck
Still IMO lost to Griffin
Doesn't have great standup, his "EXCELLENT TAKEDOWNS" have been stuffed in his last two fights, and despite what Bruce Buffer says, he is not a submission fighter. That would involve submitting people.

So we have fan favorite, based on fan-related reasons.

"He's Tough" - How tough is he if he got knocked out twice to the same guy (almost three if you count round one?) Tough would be not getting knocked down in the first round (If you were one of the toughest guys in MMA.) Shit Liddell knocked Horn down 50 freaking times before it was over because he couldn't see. By that logic, HORN > Tougher than Tito.

"He has the best cardio" - Who cares if you can fight for 80 rounds if you can't finish somebody in 3 (Cote, Griffin) or survive to the 5th round when this cardio would take place against a knockout fighter?

"He fights anybody"
That's just like respecting Renzo Gracie's record. Fighting anybody is respectful. But not necessarily a great thing (or smart one) to do.

"He destroyed Shamrock"
We don't need to discuss this anymore. He probably only did this so he could say he fought 4 times that year to further prove points mentioned above "Fights anybody" and "Toughest guy in MMA."

"He took his loss like a man"
And Forrest Griffin took his loss poorly, but I still think he beat Ortiz in their fight. Taking his loss like a man doesn't mean we have to say he's a great fighter.

I'm with you Bungle. Tito does not need to be included in great fighter discussions. And if he is, those reasons aren't gonna cut it. That'd be like me saying "I'm one of the best doctors" when I have no patients and the last one I had died, the ones before that were people coming in for wrist pain and headaches but hey I worked 95 hrs a week for 5 years so I'm the toughest doctor in all of medicine, plus it was a really hard case of Ebola so I didn't have a chance.
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Old 01-03-2007, 11:30 AM   #23 (permalink)
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He lost to chuck. Everyone loses to chuck. He did lose to forrest contrary to the decision but his knee was messed up which is a matter of fact. The question is are you talking about the best lightheavyweights in the world? And what do you consider the best. Is it top 15, top 10, top 5??? Tito probably is not top 5 but he is for sure top 10. I would find that you would be hard pressed to name 10 guys better than Tito. I would love to see Tito fight Babulu. I would love to see him go to Pride for a while and fight Shogun. I think Tito would take Babulu and if the UFC is smart they should make that match up happen.
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Old 01-03-2007, 12:26 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeno
People miss the point so much as soon as you say anything about Tito. Why is he so highly regarded? He's a fan favorite, nothing more. He was a champ, years ago, in a different world of MMA.

Tito is great because:
"He's Tough"
"He has the best cardio"
"He fights anybody"
"He destroyed Shamrock"
"He took his loss like a man"

Tito is not great because:
Couldn't finish Patrick Cote in a short notice fight
Shamrock was a legend, not a fighter
Got spanked by Chuck
Still IMO lost to Griffin
Doesn't have great standup, his "EXCELLENT TAKEDOWNS" have been stuffed in his last two fights, and despite what Bruce Buffer says, he is not a submission fighter. That would involve submitting people.

So we have fan favorite, based on fan-related reasons.

"He's Tough" - How tough is he if he got knocked out twice to the same guy (almost three if you count round one?) Tough would be not getting knocked down in the first round (If you were one of the toughest guys in MMA.) Shit Liddell knocked Horn down 50 freaking times before it was over because he couldn't see. By that logic, HORN > Tougher than Tito.

"He has the best cardio" - Who cares if you can fight for 80 rounds if you can't finish somebody in 3 (Cote, Griffin) or survive to the 5th round when this cardio would take place against a knockout fighter?

"He fights anybody"
That's just like respecting Renzo Gracie's record. Fighting anybody is respectful. But not necessarily a great thing (or smart one) to do.

"He destroyed Shamrock"
We don't need to discuss this anymore. He probably only did this so he could say he fought 4 times that year to further prove points mentioned above "Fights anybody" and "Toughest guy in MMA."

"He took his loss like a man"
And Forrest Griffin took his loss poorly, but I still think he beat Ortiz in their fight. Taking his loss like a man doesn't mean we have to say he's a great fighter.

I'm with you Bungle. Tito does not need to be included in great fighter discussions. And if he is, those reasons aren't gonna cut it. That'd be like me saying "I'm one of the best doctors" when I have no patients and the last one I had died, the ones before that were people coming in for wrist pain and headaches but hey I worked 95 hrs a week for 5 years so I'm the toughest doctor in all of medicine, plus it was a really hard case of Ebola so I didn't have a chance.

1. "He's tough" = Maybe, but not tougher than most.

2. "He has the best Cardio" = Please post your cardiology degree along with your diagnostic tests for all MMA fighters or else this is just a ridiculous comment.

3. "He fights anybody." = Are you kidding me? He dodged Chuck for so long that he finally had to leave the UFC and have his title stripped from him. Then he made up some bullshit story that he and Chuck made some pact that they would never fight each other. He's a coward.

4. "He destroyed Shamrock" Ken Shamrock was at least a decade past his prime when Tito fought him. There is nothing impressive about it.

5. "He took his loss like a man." = This is your most laughable comment yet. Tito has done nothing but whine, complain and make excuse after excuse for his poor performances. Constantly having to listen to him cry about getting a finger in the eye and claiming that that's the reason he lost to Chuck made me want to puke.

Face it Tito is a B-level fighter at best...

and you're an imbecile.
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Old 01-03-2007, 12:30 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Bungle
1. "He's tough" = Maybe, but not tougher than most.

2. "He has the best Cardio" = Please post your cardiology degree along with your diagnostic tests for all MMA fighters or else this is just a ridiculous comment.

3. "He fights anybody." = Are you kidding me? He dodged Chuck for so long that he finally had to leave the UFC and have his title stripped from him. Then he made up some bullshit story that he and Chuck made some pact that they would never fight each other. He's a coward.

4. "He destroyed Shamrock" Ken Shamrock was at least a decade past his prime when Tito fought him. There is nothing impressive about it.

5. "He took his loss like a man." = This is your most laughable comment yet. Tito has done nothing but whine, complain and make excuse after excuse for his poor performances. Constantly having to listen to him cry about getting a finger in the eye and claiming that that's the reason he lost to Chuck made me want to puke.

Face it Tito is a B-level fighter at best...

and you're an imbecile.
Bungle what do you consider A level to B level? Is top 5 A level? or is top 10 A level? Your throwing out this B level fighter crap but what the hell does that mean? You act like if the guy isn't the best in the world he is B-level.
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Old 01-03-2007, 12:32 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Are you referring to me being an imbecile? Did you even read the post?

I was stating what people commonly say about Ortiz, hence why they are in quotes. Then later in the post I refute all of those and say that I agree with you...
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Old 01-03-2007, 12:38 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Tito came back to the UFC simply to try and regain his title from Chuck.

All he's worked on since his return, seems to be his standup.

Why?

Because it's what let him down the first time against Chuck.

If he could stand longer or smarter, he'd have a chance.

And he did last Saturday.

But what failed him?

His takedown ability.

You can't shoot from that far out and expect success.

Did he need to be better at his take downs against Forrest & Ken 2x?

No.

Did he need to be better at takedowns for Chuck?

Yes.

He fought bravely. He fought well. He lasted longer than I thought. I don't "love" Tito, but after this fight I do have respect for him.

He's still young enough (is that starting to sound like Mir & Belfort? but I think Frank and Vitor are shadows of their former selves because of the trauma they've experienced in their personal lives) if Tito hangs in there and doesn't get bored or frustrated, he can be on top after Chuck leaves or ages some more.

A 34 year old Tito against a 40 year old Chuck will be Tito's way to win.

But that all depends on Rampage and if the rumors that Cro Cop might trim down to 205 (he fights at 215... it's not impossible).

I would love to see Mirko and Liddell. Either way, it ends up with somebody severely unconscious or with broken bones.

As for Tito, I'd like to see him fight Babalu or Rashad to show he's still the #2 guy in UFC. And for Zuffa to steal Rua from PRIDE
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Old 01-03-2007, 12:49 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Did he need to be better at his take downs against Forrest & Ken 2x?

No.
Not for Ken but Forrest stuffed nearly 6 takedowns from Tito.

Either way the argument is not about respecting Tito. It's about this thing where Tito is considered a legendary fighter by some. He is overrated, not under-respected.
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Old 01-03-2007, 12:49 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeno
Are you referring to me being an imbecile? Did you even read the post?

I was stating what people commonly say about Ortiz, hence why they are in quotes. Then later in the post I refute all of those and say that I agree with you...

Oops sorry...I didn't read the whole post.

My apologies.
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Old 01-03-2007, 12:58 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beeno
Not for Ken but Forrest stuffed nearly 6 takedowns from Tito.

Either way the argument is not about respecting Tito. It's about this thing where Tito is considered a legendary fighter by some. He is overrated, not under-respected.
Yes, Forrest stuffed practically all the takedowns in the later rounds, but did Tito need to take him down at that point? No. It was a close fight but Tito won. Regardless. (let's avoid a tangent about who won that fight and whether or not Forrest was actually landing those later round punches or just hitting Tito's arms or not)

Tito is a legendary fighter. just as his former rival Ken Shamrock was/is "legendary".

Does being legendary mean you've beaten the best?

Tito's fought some stiff competition and come up short against specifically Liddell and Randy.

Losing to those 2 guys doesn't make you B level. It makes you human.

You'd have to be an elite fighter and fight a perfect fight to beat those 2 guys.

Tito is an elite fighter but he didn't fight perfectly against either of those 2.

I'd still list him as an A fighter who just can't get over the hump.

B level is somebody who's never even had a shot at the top and isn't going to, but who doesn't lose to the younger fighters... a journeyman to steal a phrase from other arenas.

Tito is by no means a journeyman fighter.

Let the debate contiune...
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