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post #11 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-12-2010, 04:35 PM
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the one last night that was clearly un-escapable
But miracles do happen and there is a way out of everything, the problem is the debates it would cause. "it looked locked in ref but I was just about to escape, I had it under control"

There's no definitive way of judging it, like you can judge if someone is asleep or not, so it should be up to the fighters. They are pros after all, they know the risks.

I reckon there could be rules on it though. If a fighter is generally a submission artist and breaks a limb on someone, he should get a warning that if he breaks something again, his motives and technique will be reviewed. There is a middle ground between breaking someone's limb and not holding the submission tight enough to be effective.

E.G if when you get an armbar and they are quite defencless, if you yank it back as hard and fast as you can, you could say you were trying to do damage, which shouldn't be allowed. Then again that creates a grey area in that fast grappling results in fast submissions.

All in all I think if one fighter has a reputation for doing it to people, he should be questioned about it. Otherwise, it's just the nature of the sport.
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post #12 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-12-2010, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by SM33 View Post
But miracles do happen and there is a way out of everything, the problem is the debates it would cause. "it looked locked in ref but I was just about to escape, I had it under control"
That's my biggest problem with it, if a ref stops it mid-armbar and well, if Maia can claim he wasn't out against Nate then people can easily claim they were just about to escape. refs are under enough scrutiny just now, this just adds to it.

Plus some fighters are just full of excuses.
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post #13 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-12-2010, 05:40 PM
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No. Some fighters are more flexible, have a higher pain tolerance, etc and can actually get out of the armbar and win the fight. Andre Winner faced a guy where he had his opponent in a triangle choke and turned it into an armbar. Disgusting angle on the arm but he managed to reverse the situation and the fight went on.
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post #14 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-12-2010, 05:54 PM
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**** what the referee thinks. If it were up to Cecil Peoples, the second someone is caught in the loose front facelock after having his shot stuffed, he'd see that as an inescapable submission and end. So **** the refs. If a headstrong fighter isn't smart enough to realize that his arm is gonna break if he doesn't tap, then that's his **** up.
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post #15 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-12-2010, 05:55 PM
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Like the earlier posts have stated. These guys are pros. and have been in the game awhile. They know when to tap and don't need to be micro managed. The only reason I can see for a ref. stopping a fight because of a sub is if one of the fighters cannot physically tap out, such as if they are unconscious or have all their tied up, for example.
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post #16 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-12-2010, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Soakked View Post
Allow fighters to take that risk if they want to, they know of the consequences. There are some fighters that have gotten out of nasty armbars before, why prevent them from that chance if that's the road they want to take.
I agree, a couple events back Alemida got caught in a really tight armbar but wiggled out and ended up winning the fight.

One of the guys I train BJJ with was recently reffing an ameatuer fight. One of the guys got caught in a deep deep armbar but refused to tap so he stopped the fight. The crowd went completly nuts and booed him for the remainder of the evening. I completly agree with his decision in this situation as an ameateur fight if relativly unimportant and it is better to save the guy from himself.

In a professional MMA you tap or it snaps and that is how it should be. The crowd would go insane if a fight was stopped without a tap, as would the fighter who was hanging in their. The guy may have been able to escape, may have been able to endure the pain, the guy with the sub may think he doesnt have it and let go. There are nowhere near enough cases where guys get serious injuries from not tapping to bring in a no tap stoppage (unless they are unconscious obviosly).
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post #17 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-12-2010, 10:30 PM
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Just gotta leave it up to the fighters, they are professionals they know when their arm is at it's breaking point.

If the athletic commission starts to allow refs to stop fights during sub attempts, while the fighter is still conscious, I could see more early stoppage situations in the future that a fighter could have possibly got out of whether it be an armbar, choke etc.
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post #18 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-13-2010, 12:29 AM
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Hey it's their arm! The ref doesn't really know how tight a sub is sometimes. I would be p*ssed if people started getting ripped off because of questionable ref's opinions, it happens enough with tko's.
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post #19 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-13-2010, 01:00 AM
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I disagree TS. Look at Bendo/Cerrone or Huerta/Gray.

The fighters know their body better than anyone else and it's their responsibility to tap out and have the ref step in.

If they get a limb broken they can only blame themselves and no one else.
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post #20 of 27 (permalink) Old 01-13-2010, 03:10 AM
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for another example, the royce/hughes fight. that one looked bad; and matt said he heard some pops. But royce pushed on, only to give up his back and get pounded out in an absolutely piss-poor performance
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