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Arm Bar Referee Stoppage

3K views 26 replies 22 participants last post by  Hammerlock2.0 
#1 ·
I don't want to turn UFC into some kind of pansy game, but last night's Escudero fight made me think that maybe some of these guys need to be saved from themselves. This guy is really lucky his arm didn't snap in at least one place. I'm not sure of how the rules work, but in your opinion, should the ref stop fights where the guy is clearly done by an arm bar but is too determined or tough to tap before it breaks? It's a real shame when a promising guy loses his career because he's too tough/determined/foolish to tap.
 
#2 ·
I dunno, it would save some headstrong fighters but seeing as how there can be so much distrust in TKO stoppages sometimes I don't really see why.

If you don't tap you snap, people just have to learn the consequences and a wise man will always learn from the mistakes of others.
 
#3 ·
Allow fighters to take that risk if they want to, they know of the consequences. There are some fighters that have gotten out of nasty armbars before, why prevent them from that chance if that's the road they want to take.
 
#16 ·
I agree, a couple events back Alemida got caught in a really tight armbar but wiggled out and ended up winning the fight.

One of the guys I train BJJ with was recently reffing an ameatuer fight. One of the guys got caught in a deep deep armbar but refused to tap so he stopped the fight. The crowd went completly nuts and booed him for the remainder of the evening. I completly agree with his decision in this situation as an ameateur fight if relativly unimportant and it is better to save the guy from himself.

In a professional MMA you tap or it snaps and that is how it should be. The crowd would go insane if a fight was stopped without a tap, as would the fighter who was hanging in their. The guy may have been able to escape, may have been able to endure the pain, the guy with the sub may think he doesnt have it and let go. There are nowhere near enough cases where guys get serious injuries from not tapping to bring in a no tap stoppage (unless they are unconscious obviosly).
 
#4 ·
Absolutely not, these guys are grown men and know the risks of not tapping. If you started allowing refs to stop fights due to arm bars, you'd have to let them do the same to every other submission... which would create more controversial endings then ever!
Simply put, if you can't get out, tap out... if you're not smart or good enough to do either, it's your own fault.
 
#5 ·
No, these are professional fighters, they can decide for themselves if they want to tap or not, it is their career, and honestly.. no one can decide better then the guy about to get his arm broken..

they need to set aside their pride and tap, or have a short career.
 
#6 ·
i agree fighters know the consequences if they dont tap, certain guys would prefer to get put to sleep when caught in guollitines(sp) so if they want to get there arm broke then let them. Ive had a broken forearm and arm and id rather swallow my pride and tap if given a choice but thats just me.
 
#7 ·
I don't think pride has anything to do with it, no one will think less of you if you tap.

At the time I think it's more instinctive to tap than just let it happen, but sometimes you're instinct can say 'there's a way out of this'. Sometimes there is, sometimes there isn't...

You'd be a fool to think that not tapping will reserve a tough man image, because you're not tough to anyone with only one arm.

IMO the ref shouldn't be allowed to stop it though when it looks un-escapable, cus anything can happen. That would cause so many complictions and controversies.
 
#9 ·
There are guys who wont tap even if their arms do snap (Re: Sylvia vs. Mir fight) and that is when the ref needs to step in.
I could prolly list couple dozens of "miracle escapes" from submissions and I don't want fighters getting screwed just because Mazzagati thinks there is a chance for the arm to snap when in reality that armbar may not even be setup properly yet.
 
#10 ·
The problem with them stopping it when it looks unescapable is that is leaves a lot of room for some very subjective reffing. We have seen fights where fighters are getting pounded on and the refs step in and still there is a lot of discussion on the timeliness of the stoppages. Further, we have seen many fights where an armbar looks deep but the fighter is able to roll out of it.

I was thinking the same thing watching the fight last night, but such a rule would only lead to more and more criticisim over referee stoppages. I would hate to see a title fight inappropriately stopped because a ref "thinks" a figher couldn't escape.
 
#11 ·
the one last night that was clearly un-escapable
But miracles do happen and there is a way out of everything, the problem is the debates it would cause. "it looked locked in ref but I was just about to escape, I had it under control"

There's no definitive way of judging it, like you can judge if someone is asleep or not, so it should be up to the fighters. They are pros after all, they know the risks.

I reckon there could be rules on it though. If a fighter is generally a submission artist and breaks a limb on someone, he should get a warning that if he breaks something again, his motives and technique will be reviewed. There is a middle ground between breaking someone's limb and not holding the submission tight enough to be effective.

E.G if when you get an armbar and they are quite defencless, if you yank it back as hard and fast as you can, you could say you were trying to do damage, which shouldn't be allowed. Then again that creates a grey area in that fast grappling results in fast submissions.

All in all I think if one fighter has a reputation for doing it to people, he should be questioned about it. Otherwise, it's just the nature of the sport.
 
#12 ·
But miracles do happen and there is a way out of everything, the problem is the debates it would cause. "it looked locked in ref but I was just about to escape, I had it under control"
That's my biggest problem with it, if a ref stops it mid-armbar and well, if Maia can claim he wasn't out against Nate then people can easily claim they were just about to escape. refs are under enough scrutiny just now, this just adds to it.

Plus some fighters are just full of excuses.
 
#13 ·
No. Some fighters are more flexible, have a higher pain tolerance, etc and can actually get out of the armbar and win the fight. Andre Winner faced a guy where he had his opponent in a triangle choke and turned it into an armbar. Disgusting angle on the arm but he managed to reverse the situation and the fight went on.
 
#14 ·
**** what the referee thinks. If it were up to Cecil Peoples, the second someone is caught in the loose front facelock after having his shot stuffed, he'd see that as an inescapable submission and end. So **** the refs. If a headstrong fighter isn't smart enough to realize that his arm is gonna break if he doesn't tap, then that's his **** up.
 
#15 ·
Like the earlier posts have stated. These guys are pros. and have been in the game awhile. They know when to tap and don't need to be micro managed. The only reason I can see for a ref. stopping a fight because of a sub is if one of the fighters cannot physically tap out, such as if they are unconscious or have all their tied up, for example.
 
#17 ·
Just gotta leave it up to the fighters, they are professionals they know when their arm is at it's breaking point.

If the athletic commission starts to allow refs to stop fights during sub attempts, while the fighter is still conscious, I could see more early stoppage situations in the future that a fighter could have possibly got out of whether it be an armbar, choke etc.
 
#22 ·
Nope

People escape armbars all the time, even when most people think the fight is over. If a fighter isnt ready to tap i beleive he deservse a chance to work his way out of it. I think Escudero did the rigth thing, first instinct was to fight his way out but tapped when he relized it wasnt gonna happen.
BTW did anyone else see Escadero tap twice, cause it looked like he tapped as soon as he was rolled over but the ref missed it and he decided to hold out a little longer berfore tapping anyway......watch it again and watch his free hand !
 
#24 ·
the reff defiantly needs to step in when it gets too dangerous. That guy probably has at least a fracture. I know it would piss off some people but these fighters need to be saved from themeless. We don't want another ken shamrock vs leon fight where he wouldn't tap and ken turned his leg around backwards.

for those who havent seen it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ORME8h70jw


plus the reffs not stopping fights and having more people having broken bones gives more fire power to the politician who speak out against the UFC.
 
#25 ·
He didn't break anything. I posted a thread about it the other day. It was dumb and dangerous for him to hold on like that.

I don't think it would be good for them to implement a rule that allows refs to stop fights due to a submission hold. If a fighter is on his way out of the submission and the ref is not aware, he would still stop it. There is enough controversy over TKO stoppages, this has way more room for error.

Also, in an actual TKO situation, a lot of times the fighter cannot actually signal that they need out of the fight so the ref is the only person who can protect the fighter. In the case of an armbar, the fighters is fully aware of what is happening and can have the fight stopped whenever they want it to be stopped.
 
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