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Old 01-15-2010, 08:57 AM   #51 (permalink)
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although i believe fighters should always aspire to fight the best no matter who it is, im certain different fighters would have different views on the topic. i also wouldnt blame someone for not wanting to fight

im not sure that the fact i have trained makes my opinion more valid, maybe it does
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Old 01-15-2010, 09:18 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Drogo View Post
LOLOLOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Lots of fighters, even close friends or brothers as you pointed out, are willing to fight each other. If you think that because you are close to some training partners that somehow makes it ok you're wrong and demonstrably so since lots (most) other fighters are willing to do their job.

If you can't understand something as simple as separation of job and friendship then don't go into MMA, period. There are lots of jobs where the issue won't come up, do one of those.
Most fighter are willing to fight their training partners? thats news to me... Then why haven't the WW from AKA, Kos, Swick, Fitch etc. fought each other yet, and have said publicly they won't fight each other. Machida and Silva have said they won't fight each other either.

Sure like I said there are fighters that will fight anyone, but I bet most fighters would turn down a title fight/#1 contender fight if it where against a guy that they train with day in and day out.

its not just because you're friends with them, its the whole gyms problem too... both fighters would have to leave the place they train to go train elsewhere it wouldn't be fair to the coaches/fighters to have to corner one guy against the other when you want to see them both do well...
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Old 01-15-2010, 09:38 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Drogo View Post
LOLOLOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Lots of fighters, even close friends or brothers as you pointed out, are willing to fight each other. If you think that because you are close to some training partners that somehow makes it ok you're wrong and demonstrably so since lots (most) other fighters are willing to do their job.

If you can't understand something as simple as separation of job and friendship then don't go into MMA, period. There are lots of jobs where the issue won't come up, do one of those.
You like to describe it in such basic terms, like MMA is the same as any other job. You're wrong, it is not. MMA athletes seek to inflict damage to their opponent through combat, they are not working in a local shop.

It doesn't matter if some fighters are willing to do it, that means they probably are less bothered about the damage that can be caused in a fight. The dangers of MMA are very real, and when you've got hands like Anderson Silva or Paul Daley you know you could leave a best mate unconcious on the mat.

It doesn't matter how much you simplify it, how much you compare it to regular jobs or other sports, MMA is an entirely different beast with a high KO ratio. No amount of training or money changes the fact that brain injuries in particular are serious business.

Don't bother saying they shouldn't be fighters if they can't accept the dangers, because again that's just a pointless oversimplification. Dangers involved when you don't know the other guy and he wants to smash you are different to dangers when you are close friends with the other guy and neither of you want to do it. It becomes a very uncomfortable situation.

The concerns of damaging someone permanently, on purpose, cannot just be ignored by some people. You really should understand this.
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Old 01-15-2010, 09:49 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Bob Pataki View Post
You like to describe it in such basic terms, like MMA is the same as any other job. You're wrong, it is not. MMA athletes seek to inflict damage to their opponent through combat, they are not working in a local shop.

It doesn't matter if some fighters are willing to do it, that means they probably are less bothered about the damage that can be caused in a fight. The dangers of MMA are very real, and when you've got hands like Anderson Silva or Paul Daley you know you could leave a best mate unconcious on the mat.

It doesn't matter how much you simplify it, how much you compare it to regular jobs or other sports, MMA is an entirely different beast with a high KO ratio. No amount of training or money changes the fact that brain injuries in particular are serious business.

Don't bother saying they shouldn't be fighters if they can't accept the dangers, because again that's just a pointless oversimplification. Dangers involved when you don't know the other guy and he wants to smash you are different to dangers when you are close friends with the other guy and neither of you want to do it. It becomes a very uncomfortable situation.

The concerns of damaging someone permanently, on purpose, cannot just be ignored by some people. You really should understand this.
Bob, nothing you are saying is untrue. But knowing the complications, why train as part of a team to begin with?

True, It isn't fair. I can completely see two fighters from the same gym climbing the ladder to the point they are competing for a belt and finding themselves unable to fight. But, training as part of a team will always create these issues. It is MMA. A one-to-one sport. Training in "teams" for one-to-one combat is great when your teams are also opposing. eg. One country against another. But to use the example of kos, Swick and Fitch. All welterweights. All of them WANT the same belt. They fecking talk about it enough and how they "deserve" it. But, they wont fight!? Somethings got to give. What happens if Fitch holds the belt. Will Kos suddenly believe hes not the best WW in the UFC?

Its all very well talking about damaging friends and the ethics of it. Its difficult to argue for pummelling your friends head in. But when you are top ranked, what about the damage to the legitimacy of the sport?

Are we seriously suggesting the whole gym/team thing is a good thing for competition?
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Old 01-15-2010, 10:07 AM   #55 (permalink)
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If you arn't training in teams, who are you going to train with?

Who's going to push you to the next level before the next fight, if no one trained in teams whats the point of helping other fighters prepare for a fight.
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Old 01-15-2010, 10:17 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TheGrizzlyBear View Post
If you arn't training in teams, who are you going to train with?

Who's going to push you to the next level before the next fight, if no one trained in teams whats the point of helping other fighters prepare for a fight.
I ment long term. Like training in the same camp for years. A fighter can switch training partners. My point was that this tight bond that generates inside long term teams will conflict with your career big time if several of you are going for a belt. You know its not necessary to train with the same guys you are in DIRECT competition with for the same prize. GSP, Penn, Silva, Machida and Lesnar all manage to increase their skills without training with direct competitors.

I know Silva has been criticized for not fighting Lyoto, but to be fair they are not in the same weight class. If they dont fancy the fight, then so be it. At least it doesn't feck up all the rankings for MW and LHW.
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Old 01-15-2010, 10:27 AM   #57 (permalink)
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But its not just the training partners in a camp its the coaches... lets put it this way...

Say your a UFC fighter, and you've been training with Greg Jackson (by far one of the best MMA coaches out there) and you get offered a shot at being the next in line for a title but you have to fight a training partner for it... What do you do? do you leave one of the best camps in the world for this shot? You can't make him leave either... and you sure as hell wouldn't train together to fight each other either...

Like i said its not just the bond you make with your training partners its with your whole coaching staff as well.
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Old 01-15-2010, 10:28 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Soojooko View Post
Bob, nothing you are saying is untrue. But knowing the complications, why train as part of a team to begin with?

True, It isn't fair. I can completely see two fighters from the same gym climbing the ladder to the point they are competing for a belt and finding themselves unable to fight. But, training as part of a team will always create these issues. It is MMA. A one-to-one sport. Training in "teams" for one-to-one combat is great when your teams are also opposing. eg. One country against another. But to use the example of kos, Swick and Fitch. All welterweights. All of them WANT the same belt. They fecking talk about it enough and how they "deserve" it. But, they wont fight!? Somethings got to give. What happens if Fitch holds the belt. Will Kos suddenly believe hes not the best WW in the UFC?

Its all very well talking about damaging friends and the ethics of it. Its difficult to argue for pummelling your friends head in. But when you are top ranked, what about the damage to the legitimacy of the sport?

Are we seriously suggesting the whole gym/team thing is a good thing for competition?
this is a very good post. and it re-iterates my point in a way. it is an individual sport where the top guys are pursuing excellence. i would imagine they should want to test themselves against the best

the gym/team thing is an interesting and valid point
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Old 01-15-2010, 10:33 AM   #59 (permalink)
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But its not just the training partners in a camp its the coaches... lets put it this way...

Say your a UFC fighter, and you've been training with Greg Jackson (by far one of the best MMA coaches out there) and you get offered a shot at being the next in line for a title but you have to fight a training partner for it... What do you do? do you leave one of the best camps in the world for this shot? You can't make him leave either... and you sure as hell wouldn't train together to fight each other either...

Like i said its not just the bond you make with your training partners its with your whole coaching staff as well.
Exactly my point Griz. What would you do? The fact that there is no answer... at least not one that doesn't tear your life apart, is pretty much what I'm saying. Its a very productive way to learn MMA, as part of a team. Also very productive regards making you a better fighter. All true. But, very unproductive when trying to establish who are the best fighters in the world. See what I saying? How do we solve that? I don't really know to be honest.

Great fooking debate chaps.
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Old 01-15-2010, 10:37 AM   #60 (permalink)
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you really can't solve it i think, some guys arn't going to want to fight each other and people are going to have to deal with it.

like the guys from AKA will never fight each other unless someone leaves that camp, and I don't really think that will happen anytime soon where those guys will still be considered in or near top 10 in the world.
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