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post #21 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-16-2010, 06:55 PM
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Even Heath Herring dropped Kongo.

Cheick isn't that good of a fighter.

In short, Mir is not top of the heap, talent wise.

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post #22 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-16-2010, 07:00 PM
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I don't really like him a lot, but he's interesting to watch.
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post #23 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-16-2010, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by alizio View Post
JDS will realize that size matters soon enough when you have no wrestling base. Mir learned the hard way, the same lesson is coming for JDS except his BJJ isnt as good as Franks and he will be in more trouble on his back then Frank is. Now you got a freak like my boy Cain who has elite wrestling plus is a BJJ world champion. The days of BJJ alone being enough are coming to an end fast, these wrestlers are also bjj guys now so these bjj guys better start learning wrestling or be left behind.

Mirs standup is evovling as we speak, those that continue to ignore this fact will continue to be surprised as Mir continues to outstrike supposedly "better strikers" like Nog and Kongo. I dont think Mirs striking is on a JDS level (frankly, almost nobody in the division is on that level) but it is more then good enough to beat most HWs standing and those he cant likely cant hang on the ground.

Just wondering... who do you think has more of a chance vs Lesnar?

JDS, or Velasquez?

Please break the fights down as well.


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post #24 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-16-2010, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by 420atalon View Post
Size/weight is VERY important now with Lesnar as champion.

Lesnar is not just some big slow unskilled fighter. He is very big, strong and skilled.

Mir knows he needs to gain some more strength if he ever wants to be champion again.
I'm not hopeful that he'll ever hold the belt again as long as Lesnar is around. I agree that he's looked incredible in the past 6-8 months, but I'm not sure how much more muscle mass he can put on before it starts to slow him down a little.

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post #25 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-16-2010, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Iuanes View Post
I really don't think Frank Mir's abilities are over hyped as much as his profile is always noticeable to do his self-promoting. I haven't seen anything on this forum or others that argues for Frank Mir being the de facto champion or dominating the division. I think the consensus is that Frank Mir is an elite heavyweight with a big mouth who has the potential to be champion.

I tired of people downplaying his first win over Lesnar. The truth is there are very few people in the division who could have pulled off what he did to Lesnar.
Realistically all Brock needed was a little sub defense to completely nullify Mir.
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post #26 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-16-2010, 09:04 PM
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I don't really see this Mir hype, at least not on this board.

I see a whole lot of people saying that Mir stands no chance of getting through Brock again. Hardly anyone here gives Mir any credit whatsoever for his first win against Brock.

Originally Posted by Iuanes View Post

I tired of people downplaying his first win over Lesnar. The truth is there are very few people in the division who could have pulled off what he did to Lesnar.

And no one seems to note the fact that Mir's standup looks a hell of a lot better than Brock's and that Mir's increased mass may very well keep him from having his arm held down on the ground and allow him longer to work for a submission against a guy who he's already submitted.

And then there's the group of lunatics who think that Nog could somehow defeat Mir in a rematch.

And then the "well Kongo sucked anyway" argument, even though he's repeatedly shown excellent striking and that's where Mir beat him.

I don't think Mir's underhyped or anything but complete domination over a top contender, 1st round win over the champ, and stand up annihilation of one the HW division's top strikers in 3 of his last 4 fights should have him regarded as an elite HW.
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post #27 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-16-2010, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by khoveraki View Post
Just wondering... who do you think has more of a chance vs Lesnar?

JDS, or Velasquez?

Please break the fights down as well.
how about this breakdown. Cain would smash JDS via takedowns, gnp and non stop aggression.

I dont know why you are asking for complete breakdowns of mythical fights like it proves something, most of these guys will fight each other soon so all the answers we need will be provided. Your opinion on how a fight would go hardly means a thing. Ill tell this much, Cain stands a much better chance of not ending up on his back everytime Lesnar goes for a TD and Cain has better standup then Lesnar, better cardio then Lesnar and has really good BJJ aswell. I dont think it's a good matchup for Cain personally because of Lesnars size and base but i think Cain would stand a chance to wear him down. He is a younger, better, Randy Couture. You just dont see it yet, he is Randy with better standup and BJJ.... soon you will understand Khov, and i will accept your apology

I think JDS stands a chance to KO anybody that stands with him for extended times. That being said, he has faced nobody with great TDs and wrestling. Then he will go from that inexperience to one of the best TD artists in the game?? He better flash Ko cuz once on his back i give JDS a much smaller chance of survival then Frank Mir.

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post #28 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-16-2010, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by dav35 View Post
OK, I will admit it; Iím not the biggest Mir fan. I think heís an entertaining fighter with good jui jitsu, but I donít understand the blind admiration for this guy. Heís downright hilarious with his trash talking, so that doesn't bother me. I can get over someoneís personality and respect the fighter. I respect him as a fighter, but I donít understand the extent of the Mir hype. People make him out to be the biggest thing in the HW division. People say that Brock and Cain are overhyped and that Mir is a proven MMA veteran with better skills.

Letís be honest. What notable victories does Mir have? Lesnar (who people say is overrated), Nog (who was in a weakened state), Kongo (who has notable victories over a shell of CCÖ.???), and Sylvia (who doesnít stand a chance in todayís UFC HW lineup).

Lesnar Ė Mir looked awful in both fights against Lesnar. He pulled off a lucky (the stand up when Lesnar was 10 seconds away from ending the fight was BS) sub against an MMA newbie in Lesnar in the first fight. People say that he was tagging Brock in the second fight before the knees, but if you watch the replays he missed every single strike leading up to the short elbow and missed flying knee (which was an act of desperation). Lesnar has dominated 95% of their time in the Octagon.

Nog Ė I believe this fight is a much different fight if Nog is healthy. Will Mir win the rematch? Possibly, but Nog is better on the ground and is no slouch when it comes to striking. This is a touch matchup for Mir.

Kongo Ė I will admit that I was surprised at how this fight went. Kongo made one HUGE mistake that ended up costing him the fight. I donít think that Mirís standup is superior to Kongo, but Mir made Kongo pay. Hands down, Mir won this fight. You canít take that away from him. However, Kongo isnít even a top 10 fighter. Mir was expected to win this fight. Kongo was coming off a loss to Cain.

I believe that Mir will continue to be a force in the HW division, but I donít see him dominating the division. He has A LOT of trouble with strong wrestlers. I think the fight against Carwin will be a big test for Mir, but Iíd be more interested in seeing him fight Cain or JDS. Thereís no way Mir wins a standup battle against JDS, and from what I understand, JDS has some good BJJ. If Mir wants to dominate the HW division, heís going to need to MAJORLY improve his TDD and wrestling skills. The HW division is under attack from large wrestlers, and Mir is going to have to confront this at some point. Otherwise, he will be nothing more than a gatekeeper for the next 3-5 years.

I know I am going to get blasted for this, but itís my opinion at the moment. Iím not a homer and donít have it out for Mir, so I could certainly change my opinion if he improves his TDD and wrestling noticeably in his next few fights (which will likely all be against big wrestlersÖ Carwin, Cain, and Brock). Iím not on board the Mir hype train yet, but I am getting on board the JDS hype train for now.
I will say that a lot of this post is a lot of discrediting BS.

I dont understand why everybody shits on Mir and his wrestling. Sure Brock dominated almost every second in both fights, but outside of that when has Mir been dominated by a wrestler????????

Sure Mir looked bad on the ground vs Brock but then again everybody will look bad vs Brock and his wrestling.
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post #29 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-16-2010, 10:02 PM
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And then the "well Kongo sucked anyway" argument, even though he's repeatedly shown excellent striking and that's where Mir beat him.
When has Kongo shown excellent striking? When he got dropped by Heath Herring? Knee'ing Mirko's junk a million times?

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post #30 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-16-2010, 10:12 PM
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Mir is worth the hype. Every fight he looks stronger, leaner, and faster.

In his first fight with Lesnar I think it was his intention to just allow the takedown versus trying to compete with such an accomplished wrestler. With his comfort level from fighting from his back I think he was willing to take what some view as a disadvantage position.

In the second fight I think he was trying to avoid Lesnar's wrestling again with his dramatically improved striking. He was doing very well until he got over-excited and threw the knee. Once Lesnar got the game into a grappling match, Mir couldn't compete with his strength. Mir openly admits this and has worked to be more physically competitive with Lesnar.

He's a huge guy, elite grappler, improving his gameplans, and he's knocking people on their ass. If it was anyone but Mir people would be bear-hugging his nuts.
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