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Old 02-05-2007, 05:06 PM   #41 (permalink)
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after a bit of searching i found this: http://boxing.nv.gov/docs/MMA%20RULES%20Expained.pdf

Quote:
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
All elbow strikes are legal except for an elbow that is thrown in a downward trajectory (hand traveling from 12 o’clock to 6 o’clock). Any elbow thrown with an arc is a legal elbow. The point of the elbow may be used as striking instrument as well as the forearm or the tricep area of the arm.
hopefully this helps to alleviate some confusion
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Old 02-05-2007, 06:07 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Not a bad explanation, but it's still fuzzy to me. To me, if you're using the motion Silva used (like when you want to signal a semi on the highway to blow their horn) - illegal. If you sweep your elbow the way you would a punch - legal.

But it still doesn't answer the question - what does "up-and-down" mean? Up and down in relation to the floor, or the fighters?
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Old 02-05-2007, 06:39 PM   #43 (permalink)
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when i think of a clock i see it on the wall. so 12-6 would not be relative in my interpratation...oh well, at least all the other rules are well explained on that thing *sigh* even the self explainatory ones. for example the no holding the ropes or fence one goes into great detail, even though it's obvious...and rarely enforced...anyone have the NSAC e-mail addy? i'll have to bother them to rewrite that rule specifically so it's more understandable to normal guys like myself
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Old 02-05-2007, 07:12 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaplata
Not a bad explanation, but it's still fuzzy to me. To me, if you're using the motion Silva used (like when you want to signal a semi on the highway to blow their horn) - illegal. If you sweep your elbow the way you would a punch - legal.

But it still doesn't answer the question - what does "up-and-down" mean? Up and down in relation to the floor, or the fighters?
When asked for clarification on this, "Big" John McArthy offers up the example of the Paul Varelans vs Cal Worsham fight. This was the fight that caused the NJ Comittee that put together the unified rules to enstate Rule #10. You can see what I'm talking about in this Video Clip Here at around 3 minutes and 24 seconds.

Yes folks... The translation of the rule is very literal.
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Old 02-05-2007, 07:27 PM   #45 (permalink)
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meh. the wasn't really paying too much attention to the elbows but they need to make sure the rules are VERY clear and the refs know them and enforce them.

i'll say again too, if a fighter is on the ground, he SHOULD be able to strike with his legs no matter where his opponent is. that means there wouldn't be any soccer kicking or anything like that from standing, but knees to head and knees vs leglocks would work.
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Old 02-05-2007, 07:31 PM   #46 (permalink)
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I wouldn't mind soccer kicks to prevent things like the end of rounds one happening(Lutter just laying there with Silva waiting with his hands on his hips for Lutter to get up), but stomps just scare me, especially the ones that they jump into(could cave a head in with all that weight on it).
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Old 02-05-2007, 08:28 PM   #47 (permalink)
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God there's so many replies but all I gotta say is Randy explained it during the fight somewhat and I didn't hear any of you canadians complaining when MacDonald did the same exact thing to Ed Herman a few months ago. His arms were parallel to the mat making them moreless sideways than downward. And they hit the side of his head first and then dragged the top of his head. You said his arms were parallel to his body making them downward. Well actually if they were downward his elbow would not be parallel to the ground or his body, they would be perpendicular because he was on his side.
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Old 02-05-2007, 10:18 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaplata
You can play a serious "what if" game with the Silva / Lutter fight - Lutter cut 20lbs to make weight for the fight, and had to cut even more after he botched the weigh-in, so he was weak and unable to perform to standard. Since he actually was able to take Silva down, and was able to pass to side and mount, the question can be speculated on: did Lutter, assuming he had had a better training regimen, have a chance?

But's that's not why I think Silva's win was sketchy.

Silva's win was sketchy because he used 3 clearly illegal elbow strikes to make Lutter tap. He struck Lutter on the crown of the skull with the point of his elbow - very clearly a breach of:

10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.

Regardless of Herb Dean not calling it, regardless of Mike Goldberg making excuses for it, and regardless of Joe Rogan being a doofus on air questioning Couture about it (Couture himself immediately bringing up the elbows when Lutter tapped), Silva used an illegal strike, and there should have been a time-out to allow Lutter to recover, the same as with an accidental kick in the groin. But seeing as how Silva did it intentionally, disqualification shouldn't have been ruled out.

I sense I'm going to take some heat for this, but that's life. The elbows were illegal, and those were the strikes that made Lutter tap.


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Old 02-05-2007, 11:53 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaplata
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
I don't know what could even remotely be considered sketchy about Lutter's weight cutting. He clearly did it wrong and he has to pay the price for that.

Obviously, you weren't too worried about that part, because you said that wasn't what you thought was really shady. You cited the bit that I quoted, and it is a UFC rule.

It's a little bit shady if you don't think about the purpose of this rule. The point of this rule is to keep a fighter from striking the head of his opponents using the point of his elbow while in a top position. The key part here is top position, that's why they use the word "downward" strike of the elbow.

Yes, it's a shady technicality. While I don't remember seeing Anderson actually pull back to strike his opponent with the point of the elbow (that being in the way that he might strike a fighter behind him), I remember him throwing pretty standard, over the top, Thai style elbows. I might be wrong on that one.

The point is, Anderson wasn't in a top position and perhaps he wasn't throwing "downward" elbows. I don't know. I agree that this little bit should be clarified, but I don't see how what Silva did was dangerous to Lutter (in any way other than what the UFC considers to be legal right now) and so I don't see anything that shady about it.
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Old 02-06-2007, 01:39 AM   #50 (permalink)
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One thing about that fight that made me think was, what if a real good GNP guy got the mount on <----Silva like lutter did? Or a real good BJJ guy went for that armbar attempt?

We would probably be having a new middleweight champ right now. To me, Silva did not look as invulnerable as I thought he was, and I was very surprised at how easily he got taken down and mounted.
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