Nate Diaz talks wrestling and scoring in MMA: "Less fighting will win you the round" - Page 2 - MMA Forum - UFC Forums - UFC Results - MMA Videos
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Old 01-15-2011, 06:42 PM   #11 (permalink)
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There's nothing wrong with what Nate had to say. Some of you like to bag on the Diaz brothers simply because they're the Diaz brothers. It wouldn't matter if they were both as intelligent as bloody Einstein. Nate raises some excellent points, and he isn't the only one who feels this way, so jog on with your bias. It's ridiculously clear that octagon control wins fights, even if next to no damage is done. That Nate can lose to someone like Stun Gun, who held onto him for dear life while Nate fought his ass off and did actual damage is certainly worth discussion. How fighting... actual fighting... in a fight... well, how it can be considered almost moot to the judges is beyond me. Rocking your opponent, bloodying your opponent, outworking your opponent... it all means zilch if he's able to get his hands on you and hold you down for the majority of the fight. That's not right, people.
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Old 01-15-2011, 06:50 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Canadian Psycho View Post
There's nothing wrong with what Nate had to say. Some of you like to bag on the Diaz brothers simply because they're the Diaz brothers. It wouldn't matter if they were both as intelligent as bloody Einstein. Nate raises some excellent points, and he isn't the only one who feels this way, so jog on with your bias. It's ridiculously clear that octagon control wins fights, even if next to no damage is done. That Nate can lose to someone like Stun Gun, who held onto him for dear life while Nate fought his ass off and did actual damage is certainly worth discussion. How fighting... actual fighting... in a fight... well, how it can be considered almost moot to the judges is beyond me. Rocking your opponent, bloodying your opponent, outworking your opponent... it all means zilch if he's able to get his hands on you and hold you down for the majority of the fight. That's not right, people.
The thing that annoys me about them is that both Nick and Nate bang on about being fighters and having a fighters mentality.

Well real fighters take their losses like a man and don't come up with a list of excuses and moan about it for weeks.
If you are gonna be as cocky and arrogant in victory as they are then they need to be humble in defeat not just chuck their toys out the pram every time.
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Old 01-15-2011, 06:52 PM   #13 (permalink)
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It's one thing if the UFC would stand up fighters more often like Pride, or atleast issue yellow cards, but they'll let a wrestler void a entire 3 round fight and do jack about it. Great you got the takedown (I love a good takedown, score them for it), but you punched him once in 3 minutes, have a cookie, and no points. I hope they adopt pride rules in this aspect soon.
i agree, i love the grappling aspect of mma, but its so annoying when you have a guy like diaz on the bottom working more than stun gun is on top. its really hard to do much to your opponite when your on the bottom, and the the guy on top isnt being offensive at all, and it only trying to hold position, and be defensive from the dominate position...

if their not going to change the scoring to more damage based, or use the yellow and red cards like pride...they should make the rounds longer, i guarentee if nick or nate diaz had 8-10 min rounds, they would be hard to beat, cus they'd eventually catch you in a submission, it would give them more time to work atleast. nate has never really been in a fight were someone has beatin him up, striking or grappling, its always these desisions based on takedowns and holding down, so i can see his frustration..and i personally dont think his wrestling is terrible, cus when he actualy goes for takedowns he gets a good amount of them. he's takedown defense is the problem, though it really doesn't seem like he trys to stop the takedown much. i think we see nate going more for the takedown, being more offensive with his wresting, using offense for defense, cus when he actually tryed to take stun gun down in the 3rd, he had some sucess.
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Old 01-15-2011, 07:06 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Jesus titty ******* christ.


You know whats worse than a complainer? A complainer that complains about the complainers.

Nate brings up some legitimate points on how the judging in MMA is scored. Far too much emphasis on cage control rather than damage.

A perfect example is Nick Lentz vs Andre Winner. Andre won the fight.

As far as i'm concerned, holding some one against a cage or holding some one down on the ground, just holding them is NOT FIGHTING.

And those are actually some of the worst comparisons i've ever seen.
Jesus titty ******* christ.


You know whats worse than a complainer? A complainer that complains about the complainers. You know whats even worse than that? A complainer who is complaining about someone complaining about someone complaining.

I am simply annoyed with the amount of talk going on about wrestling in MMA being over valued in the scoring system.

If a guy gets completly controlled for 3 rounds, taken off of his feet at will and dumped on the floor, preventing him from doing any damage then he has won the fight.

Wrestling is fighting, preventing someone else from causing you any damage by controlling them is a part of fighting.

I am bored stiff by Lay and Pray as much as anyone else. I am just so sick of people blaming their losses on the scoring system when it is due to their own deficiencies as a fighter.

Kenny Florian loses to Maynard as he was controlled for a lot of the fight. Does he whine and moan about the scoring and how hard done by he is? No. He says it is his fault that his wrestling is not good enough and it is up to him to make his wrestling better.

That is how a real fighter and a real athlete should act. If you lose, you lose. Great fighters will adapt and evolve after their losses. Others will whine and complain about the scoring.

Lets see who's wrestling improves more over the next few years. Kenny with his positive attitude and ability to view his flaws, or Nate Diaz who thinks he is hard done by and that all the rules should be changed to suit his style of fighting.

If you had ever wrestled and competed for any length of time. You might start to appreciate how hard it is to become a good wrestler.

They have earned the right to win fights by accepting the rules and creating and adapting a style that fits into them.

If you do not train and go in with a game plan that gives you the best chance of winning a fight, then you are an idiot.

Saying wrestling is not a legitimate fighting style and complaining about the rules is a massive cop out.

If you don't like the way MMA is and how it is judged then watch something else. Alternativly, try doing something constructive to change it. (whinging in interviews and crying on internet forums doesn't count)
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Old 01-15-2011, 07:13 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I disagree a lot.

There are a lot of situations were a fighter lost the first 2 roundsand came back and won the fight.
Rory MacDonald vs Carlos Condit come first to my mind because i've discussed this fight earlier today.
Anderson vs Sonnen is another example.

I am more in the favour of the refferees announcing the score after each round.

This way, a fighter knows if he is down on points, and he has to risk it, in order to win. And the other way arround.

There were a lot of fights when fighters/fans had an idea of who the winner is and in fact it was the other wau arround. Short: BS decisions.

Knowing if you're ahead or down on points would help raise the aggression level in a fight.
This is a great idea and I completly agree with the principle. It would give fighters a fair chance to adapt and try something else if they are down on the scorecards. It would also make for some awesome third rounds.

Unfortunatly, as with many things in life, the practicalities get in the way. Getting the judges to gather their scores and evaluate the round within 1 minute would be very difficult to achieve. Also we would lose out on those tense moments before the winner is announced in a very close fight.

Good idea though!
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Old 01-15-2011, 07:22 PM   #16 (permalink)
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i too am getting sick of this topic, we all know what arguments to expect from both sides whats really the point?

but one thing that i think every1 can agree on is that the scoring system does favor wrestling, one TD counts as imposing you will, octagon controle and effective grappling...when in realiy many times the octagon control and the ''effective'' part couldnt be further from the truth, you dont have octagon control if you are constantly in defending yourself from subs, you are trying to survive really

and its not ''effective'' grappling if you arent doing anything with the TD..

so like it or not wrestling IS over valued in MMA with the current scoring system, bjj and striking do not get the same respect that wrestling gets under the current system and that should change

nothing should prohibit a fighter from wrestling or keep holding a fighter down for the whole fight but the way the fight is scored could be more balanced without question

MMA is still a young sport and contrary to popular belief its FAR from perfect still...many changes still will come IMO
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Old 01-15-2011, 07:25 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I dont think they should score takedowns at all. Taking someone down is already a very advantageous position that it is worth doing to inflict superior damage/submission threat while being at low risk yourself.

Don't score takedowns, focus on scoring the exchange of strikes/grappling/submission attempts that happen once the takedown is complete.
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Old 01-15-2011, 07:36 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian Psycho View Post
There's nothing wrong with what Nate had to say. Some of you like to bag on the Diaz brothers simply because they're the Diaz brothers. It wouldn't matter if they were both as intelligent as bloody Einstein. Nate raises some excellent points, and he isn't the only one who feels this way, so jog on with your bias. It's ridiculously clear that octagon control wins fights, even if next to no damage is done. That Nate can lose to someone like Stun Gun, who held onto him for dear life while Nate fought his ass off and did actual damage is certainly worth discussion. How fighting... actual fighting... in a fight... well, how it can be considered almost moot to the judges is beyond me. Rocking your opponent, bloodying your opponent, outworking your opponent... it all means zilch if he's able to get his hands on you and hold you down for the majority of the fight. That's not right, people.
So someone getting completely schooled and outclassed in grappling and complaining is worth discussion?

Weird world we live in.

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Originally Posted by ACTAFOOL View Post
i too am getting sick of this topic, we all know what arguments to expect from both sides whats really the point?

but one thing that i think every1 can agree on is that the scoring system does favor wrestling, one TD counts as imposing you will, octagon controle and effective grappling...when in realiy many times the octagon control and the ''effective'' part couldnt be further from the truth, you dont have octagon control if you are constantly in defending yourself from subs, you are trying to survive really

and its not ''effective'' grappling if you arent doing anything with the TD..

so like it or not wrestling IS over valued in MMA with the current scoring system, bjj and striking do not get the same respect that wrestling gets under the current system and that should change

nothing should prohibit a fighter from wrestling or keep holding a fighter down for the whole fight but the way the fight is scored could be more balanced without question

MMA is still a young sport and contrary to popular belief its FAR from perfect still...many changes still will come IMO
Well then we are clearly talking about different fights. Maybe if you are just speaking in general terms. Stun Gun wasn't being threatened by Diaz because he was negating him with superior grappling. There isn't an organization or scoring criteria in the world where Stun Gun loses that fight.

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Old 01-15-2011, 07:44 PM   #19 (permalink)
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So someone getting completely schooled and outclassed in grappling and complaining is worth discussion?

Weird world we live in.
No, my 'learned' friend, what's worth discussion is a stronger fighter's ability to maintain top control but do nothing with it, while the fighter on bottom actively throws strikes and looks for continuous submissions, ala Stun Gun vs. Diaz. Diaz fought. Stun Gun was content to take a nap. The issue here is that being active and fighting from bottom is worth nothing in comparison to being inactive from the top. Some see that as a problem.
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Old 01-15-2011, 07:55 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Canadian Psycho View Post
No, my 'learned' friend, what's worth discussion is a stronger fighter's ability to maintain top control but do nothing with it, while the fighter on bottom actively throws strikes and looks for continuous submissions, ala Stun Gun vs. Diaz. Diaz fought. Stun Gun was content to take a nap. The issue here is that being active and fighting from bottom is worth nothing in comparison to being inactive from the top. Some see that as a problem.
Nate Diaz didn't do shit. Also, not sure how continuously passing guard, getting dominant positions, meanwhile completely negating futile submission attempts is being "inactive".

Oh wait, that's because it isn't.
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