***OFFICIAL*** B.J. Penn vs Jon Fitch Pre/Post Fight Discussion - Page 28 - MMA Forum - UFC Forums - UFC Results - MMA Videos
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View Poll Results: Who will win?

BJ Penn 34 50.00%
Jon Fitch 34 50.00%
Voters: 68. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-27-2011, 10:11 AM   #271 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Leed View Post
I obviously didn't mean the 'twice' literary, but you can't deny the difference in size and strenght. I doubt BJ was even over 170 fight night, and Fitch is definately stronger than BJ.
BJ weighed in at 169 lbs. I don't think he was lighter than 169 on fight night - NO WAY! Definitely heavier. 175 maybe?!
What i was trying to say is - so many people (me included) expected Fitch to have a HUGE size and stregth advantage over BJ. There were a lot of talks about Fitch coming in at 195-200 on fight night. But it didn;t happen. I don't think he was heavier than 190.
But i may be wrong.
And yes, Fitch had a size and stregth advantage over BJ, but not like people expected it to be.

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Originally Posted by Mckeever View Post
I dont know if I want to see the rematch. I expected BJ to stomp Fitch, I really did.

I still can not believe BJ had his back twice and got reversed, im ******* shocked. If he was just patient, softened him up with punches, flattened him out.

The entire fight it seemed like he was in too much of a rush. He had all the time in the world in that first round to work his BJJ, but he rushed and got reversed. God damn it.

Post fight interview was sad, I dont know if i want to see that again.
First thing that came to my mind was the BJ-Florian fight and how he choked out Kenny.
When i saw him getting Fitch's back, i thought - it could happen. But Fitch didn't look in that much trouble honestly.
Fitch looked composed.
that took a bit chunck out of BJ's confidence i think.
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Old 02-27-2011, 10:12 AM   #272 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Trix View Post
Imagine a midget trying to wrestle with a sumo wrestler or Jose Aldo trying to out-wrestle Brock Lesnar. That's what BJ trying to win a wrestling match with Fitch is.

When there are 2 fighters with close to the same skillset wrestling -- the smaller, lighter, guy ALWAYS gets tired first. It has nothing to do with cardio. The smaller fighter expends more energy to maintain or reverse position. That's the reason why lots of people expected Forrest to turn his fight with Franklin into a wrestling match. He would have the advantage and Franklin would get tired, first.

Fitch has spent years developing his style of fighting against the cage and grinding people out on the ground. He knows a lot about playing that game, and it really is his element.

Has BJ spent anywhere near the amount of time or effort fighting in that environment? Hell no. His BJJ is good, but when it comes to blanketing people holding them down and grounding and pounding and fighting against the fence -- that's Fitch's world, not BJ's.

BJ has made the same mistake twice. He fought Edgar in his environment -- in the center of the octagon letting him go in and out. Now, he's fought Fitch in his environment, against the cage in a wrestling match.

So, yeah. BJ and his crew definitely come up with the worst possible gameplans.

They probably still don't understand how Edgar won.

They're not top level trainers and coaches. They just don't have the knowledge.

BJ would be better off if he trained with AKA or somewhere else.
First of all. IT IS NOTHING LIKE THOSE 2 SCENARIOS YOU BROUGHT UP. BJ wrestling Fitch isnt even remotely similar to Jose Aldo wrestling Brock or a Midget wrestling a sumo wrestler. I cannot even believe that you just said that. If you think BJ is that far behind Fitch in the wrestling department then you are crazy. BJ Penn wrestling Fitch and wrestling BROCK LESNAR is such a crazy difference it isnt even fun to make fun of you. BJ took Fitch down twice if you dont remember?? How do you think Aldo would against Brock?? Brock would pick him up WWE style and throw him over the octagon. Then climb on top of the octagon and give him a frog splash through Joe Rogans announcer table.

Second of all. It has EVERYTHING to do with cardio. If BJ had the Cardio Fitch has then that third round would have been completely different even though BJ was smaller. Also i wanna point out that Fitch wasnt that much bigger then BJ. Fitch was about 175-177 pounds come fight time and it showed. BJ looked thicker then Fitch did except Fitch is a bit taller so obviously he has more weight. People are acting like Fitch came in at regular fitch size which isnt true at all. He was visibly skinnier because of his Vegan diet. So Fitch didnt enjoy the size advantage he usually does.

Also yeah ofcourse the smaller guy spends more energy if the skill level is equal. But usually the smaller guy tends to have better Cardio to make up for it. Perfect example is Frankie Edgar. He is one of the smallest guys in that division and yet he wrestles 5 rounds with the biggest and best of them no problem. If BJ had better cardio there is a good chance he would have gotten a decision victory. Sadly he has never been one to have impressive cardio.
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Old 02-27-2011, 10:25 AM   #273 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SM33 View Post
This is rough on Fitch, you can't call the draw a terrible call, but BJ acted like a beat man and said himself he got beat. Props to Fitch for saying he will fight as many as it takes, he's got to be losing patience soon.

I agree Mckeever, Penn definitely could have taken his time with those positions, just concentrate on a good grip and softening him up. But he rushed, got loose and Fitch span round.

Not sure a rematch is the best thing here, tough call.
The fuk are you talkin about where else does fitch have to go? hes not in a rush to end his career or change weight classes.The ww division is hardly deep, and aside from shields he shouldnt have too much trouble with the rest of the field...If he was as impatient or wanted the title shot so badly do you really think he would stand pat and persist with his plodding technique? The guy is a "white american" who has a record that stands at 13-1-1 and barely any fans to show for it..I dont know where you are gettin this "losing patience" nonsense from, sounds like transference on your part

And as for BJ's reaction u are reading way too much into it, hes an emotionally guy who had visions of gsp's fight in that last rd.Everything said should've been taken with levity
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Originally Posted by Trix View Post
Imagine a midget trying to wrestle with a sumo wrestler or Jose Aldo trying to out-wrestle Brock Lesnar. That's what BJ trying to win a wrestling match with Fitch is.

When there are 2 fighters with close to the same skillset wrestling -- the smaller, lighter, guy ALWAYS gets tired first. It has nothing to do with cardio. The smaller fighter expends more energy to maintain or reverse position. That's the reason why lots of people expected Forrest to turn his fight with Franklin into a wrestling match. He would have the advantage and Franklin would get tired, first.

Fitch has spent years developing his style of fighting against the cage and grinding people out on the ground. He knows a lot about playing that game, and it really is his element.

Has BJ spent anywhere near the amount of time or effort fighting in that environment? Hell no. His BJJ is good, but when it comes to blanketing people holding them down and grounding and pounding and fighting against the fence -- that's Fitch's world, not BJ's.

BJ has made the same mistake twice. He fought Edgar in his environment -- in the center of the octagon letting him go in and out. Now, he's fought Fitch in his environment, against the cage in a wrestling match.

So, yeah. BJ and his crew definitely come up with the worst possible gameplans.

They probably still don't understand how Edgar won.

They're not top level trainers and coaches. They just don't have the knowledge.

BJ would be better off if he trained with AKA or somewhere else.
I dont know what other tactic you were hoping for tbh..Like I already stated he doesnt have the miles to float like a butterfly & sting like a bee..He wasnt goin to ever knockout fitch because he could never get his feet firmly planted to get enough behind his jabs (out of fear of TD)

Some fighters are just bad matchups and penn's happen to be wrestlers (in their prime)
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Old 02-27-2011, 10:34 AM   #274 (permalink)
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Morning After: Judges were wrong, Fitch Won.

Quote:
Show the B.J. Penn vs. Jon Fitch fight to people who don't know how MMA is judged, and ask them who won. They'd tell you it was Fitch, obviously. But of the three people whose job it was to decide who won, only one said Fitch was the winner. The other two said it was a draw, and so that was the result: No one won the main event at UFC 127.

What's unfortunate is that the people who don't know anything about MMA would have done a better job of judging this fight than the professional judges.

Jon Fitch deserved to win the decision at UFC 127. That the fight was a draw is a combination of the fact that MMA has bad judges, and bad judging criteria.

Let's start with the bad judges: This is something that it seems everyone in MMA agrees on: Too often, the judges just plain get it wrong. What the judges score a round, it doesn't match up with what the rest of us saw. UFC President Dana White said as much when Nick Ring was gifted a unanimous decision he hadn't earned over Riki Fukuda. White wrote on Twitter: "Judges f**king suck again!! Fukuda got robbed!!!"

I agree with White's assessment, but why doesn't the UFC find better judges? In the United States, the UFC often blames athletic commissions for failing to hire and train competent judges. But in Australia the UFC isn't beholden to any athletic commission and can choose which judges it brings in. It's the UFC's responsibility to make sure the judges don't suck.

So I'd love to see White himself lead the way toward recruiting and training better judges. It's first and foremost the responsibility of the state athletic commissions, but the state athletic commissions have shown they're not up to the task.

But even aside from the individual judges, there are problems with the judging criteria. My biggest problem with MMA's use of the 10-point must system imported from boxing is that far too many MMA judges seem to think they have to score every round 10-9, and 10-10 or 10-8 rounds are far too rare. Fitch absolutely dominated the third round -- according to Compustrike he landed 134 strikes in the third, and Penn landed zero. That's a textbook example of a 10-8 round, and yet one of the judges scored it 10-9.

Watching the fight live, I scored it 29-27 for Fitch: I gave Penn the first round 10-9, Fitch the second 10-9 and Fitch the third 10-8. Watching it again this morning, I scored it the same way. FightMetric.com, which offers the most comprehensive analysis of MMA fights available anywhere, also scored it 29-27. This was a fight that Fitch won.

Except that he didn't. Instead, what Fitch gave us was another example of why MMA needs judging reform.

Notes from UFC 127
-- Is there a worse nickname in the UFC than Nick "The Promise" Ring?

-- Nice submission win for China's Zhang Tie Quan, but let's not forget that Jason Reinhardt is a 41-year-old who hadn't fought in three years and had never beaten anyone of any quality in his life. Reinhardt was the most ill-equipped fighter the UFC has put in the Octagon since James Toney.

-- It's hard not to lose respect for Michael Bisping over the last couple days, between his homophobic slur toward Jorge Rivera and his illegal knee when they were in the Octagon and his post-fight antics. Bisping showed that he's a better fighter than Rivera, but he hasn't exactly covered himself with glory this weekend.

Quotes from UFC 127
"He was very disappointed on the show when his leg blew out." -- Joe Rogan on the injury suffered by Nick Ring on The Ultimate Fighter. Tell me when you meet someone who's happy that his leg blew out.

"Both these guys have great futures at 155 pounds." -- Mike Goldberg on Spencer Fisher and Pearson. Fisher is 34 years old and has now lost three of his last four fights. His future isn't looking so bright.

Good call
Brian Ebersole's decision to start his fight with Chris Lytle by using a cartwheel kick. No, it didn't work, but it was worth a shot for a heavy underdog making his UFC debut -- and Ebersole has done it successfully before. It set the tone for a fight in which Ebersole would have his way with Lytle.

Bad call
Ebersole's decision to shave his chest hair into an arrow. Maybe it was a good luck charm in the upset victory, but it looked ridiculous.

Stock up
Mark Hunt: Granted, Hunt's stock couldn't have been much lower than it was heading into this weekend; he was riding a six-fight losing streak. But even if he's overweight and out of shape and getting old, Hunt can still hit hard, and when he connects, it's going to hurt. It certainly hurt Chris Tuchscherer who was knocked out in the first round. Hunt, the 2001 K-1 World Grand Prix champ, is probably getting close to retiring from combat sports. It would be nice to see him retire with a win.

Stock Down
George Sotiropoulos. After the way Dennis Siver handled him in the stand-up and easily avoided all his takedown attempts, I don't think we'll hear any more about Sotiropolous ever being in title contention again.

Final thought
UFC 127 was entertaining, as far as it went, but it didn't have a lot of really important match-ups. It was nice to see, however, what a good job the UFC did promoting UFC 128, a huge card headlined by Jon Jones vs. Shogun Rua. The preview for UFC 128 was tremendous, and reminded us what a really great fight card (which UFC 127 was not) looks like.

http://www.mmafighting.com/2011/02/2...h-beat-b-j-pe/

Not sure who this guys is but he pretty much read my mind. I agree with everything he said except il be re-watching the fight tomorrow. I doubt my opinion will change, it will just solidify my stance on Fitch winning round 2.
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Old 02-27-2011, 10:41 AM   #275 (permalink)
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But in Australia the UFC isn't beholden to any athletic commission and can choose which judges it brings in. It's the UFC's responsibility to make sure the judges don't suck.
Didn't know that...

White is to blame for this then. He rants about how he can't do anything about judging and yet in Australia, he can decide who gets to judge. I feel bad for Fitch, he works his ass off and doesn't complain, will take any fight the UFC throws at him and yet he gets robbed of #1 title contender status.
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Old 02-27-2011, 10:46 AM   #276 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Spec0688 View Post
Didn't know that...

White is to blame for this then. He rants about how he can't do anything about judging and yet in Australia, he can decide who gets to judge. I feel bad for Fitch, he works his ass off and doesn't complain, will take any fight the UFC throws at him and yet he gets robbed of #1 title contender status.
The saddest thing is. The guy had 8 wins in a row in the UFC 16 wins in a row all together to FINALLY get a title shot. Now he has 5 wins in a row and 1 draw and he still has no idea when he is going to get his shot. He can go on to beat 10 guys in a row and then lose 1 fight and he would have to beat another 10 to get his shot. Yet there is people getting title shots after 2-3 wins. It is amazing...
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Old 02-27-2011, 10:50 AM   #277 (permalink)
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The fuk are you talkin about where else does fitch have to go? hes not in a rush to end his career or change weight classes.The ww division is hardly deep, and aside from shields he shouldnt have too much trouble with the rest of the field...If he was as impatient or wanted the title shot so badly do you really think he would stand pat and persist with his plodding technique? The guy is a "white american" who has a record that stands at 13-1-1 and barely any fans to show for it..I dont know where you are gettin this "losing patience" nonsense from, sounds like transference on your part

And as for BJ's reaction u are reading way too much into it, hes an emotionally guy who had visions of gsp's fight in that last rd.Everything said should've been taken with levity
Well he's basically No.1 Contender and this draw leaves him in limbo, so I said well done to him for saying he'll continue do whatever it takes, because a lot of people in his situation may be getting impatient by now. And he was visibly agitated about the result. Fuk you talkin about?
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Old 02-27-2011, 11:06 AM   #278 (permalink)
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The writer of the article has such pessimistic views. He makes some good points, though when I read this article, it sounds like it's written on a thread by an average member from a forum rather than a blogger. Not that it's a bad article.

I wonder if this will encourage Fitch to be more aggressive and to take risks more often in the octagon. The judges dealt him a bad hand, I'd be a little more hesitant to want to go the distance if that happened to me.
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Old 02-27-2011, 11:06 AM   #279 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SideWays222 View Post
The saddest thing is. The guy had 8 wins in a row in the UFC 16 wins in a row all together to FINALLY get a title shot. Now he has 5 wins in a row and 1 draw and he still has no idea when he is going to get his shot. He can go on to beat 10 guys in a row and then lose 1 fight and he would have to beat another 10 to get his shot. Yet there is people getting title shots after 2-3 wins. It is amazing...
Dana isn't a fan of Fitch. The UFC picks international judges. Fitch is known for grinding out fights to decisions(leaving it in the hand of the judges where you can get screwed) what does that say? Sounds like the results of the fight were swayed to keep Fitch out of title contention. Obv there is no proof of this, but it's a pretty stable theory. Majority draw, really? The scoring system is flawed, I believe draws should only occur if all 3 judges scored it a draw, or if the ref deducted a point and caused it to be a draw.
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Old 02-27-2011, 11:54 AM   #280 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SideWays222 View Post
First of all. IT IS NOTHING LIKE THOSE 2 SCENARIOS YOU BROUGHT UP. BJ wrestling Fitch isnt even remotely similar to Jose Aldo wrestling Brock or a Midget wrestling a sumo wrestler. I cannot even believe that you just said that. If you think BJ is that far behind Fitch in the wrestling department then you are crazy. BJ Penn wrestling Fitch and wrestling BROCK LESNAR is such a crazy difference it isnt even fun to make fun of you. BJ took Fitch down twice if you dont remember?? How do you think Aldo would against Brock?? Brock would pick him up WWE style and throw him over the octagon. Then climb on top of the octagon and give him a frog splash through Joe Rogans announcer table.

Second of all. It has EVERYTHING to do with cardio. If BJ had the Cardio Fitch has then that third round would have been completely different even though BJ was smaller. Also i wanna point out that Fitch wasnt that much bigger then BJ. Fitch was about 175-177 pounds come fight time and it showed. BJ looked thicker then Fitch did except Fitch is a bit taller so obviously he has more weight. People are acting like Fitch came in at regular fitch size which isnt true at all. He was visibly skinnier because of his Vegan diet. So Fitch didnt enjoy the size advantage he usually does.

Also yeah ofcourse the smaller guy spends more energy if the skill level is equal. But usually the smaller guy tends to have better Cardio to make up for it. Perfect example is Frankie Edgar. He is one of the smallest guys in that division and yet he wrestles 5 rounds with the biggest and best of them no problem. If BJ had better cardio there is a good chance he would have gotten a decision victory. Sadly he has never been one to have impressive cardio.

Frankie Edgar doesn't wrestle against the fence where ppl can smother him and wear him down.

He stays in the center of the octagon and uses his speed, timing and technique to take people down. He doesn't waste tons of energy trying to muscle around ppl who are bigger than him for rounds and rounds.

What BJ did is nothing like what Edgar does.

10 pounds can make a huge difference. So can Fitch's height. If you weigh 165 and you're pressing forwards against someone who weighs 175 you have to press forwards with at most 10 pounds more pressure just to maintain your position against them.

They weigh more than you, so all they have to do is stand there. Of course, you'll get worn down before they do.

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And as for BJ's reaction u are reading way too much into it, hes an emotionally guy who had visions of gsp's fight in that last rd.Everything said should've been taken with levity I dont know what other tactic you were hoping for tbh..Like I already stated he doesnt have the miles to float like a butterfly & sting like a bee..He wasnt goin to ever knockout fitch because he could never get his feet firmly planted to get enough behind his jabs (out of fear of TD)

Some fighters are just bad matchups and penn's happen to be wrestlers (in their prime)

Did you see GSP vs Kos? You think GSP gave up on the idea of striking because he wouldn't be able to "plant his feet"?



Running around the ring consumes far less energy than wrestling with someone bigger & heavier and being smothered.

BJ didn't take it to the ground against Edgar.

And, he refused to strike with Fitch.

Considering he managed to finish Diego AND Hughes with the right hand striking, he should have at least tried to stand with Fitch a little. Maybe, in the second round he could have stood with him, and that could have given him a chance to rest and recover a little...
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