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Old 03-04-2011, 06:35 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sambo de Amigo View Post
Can i ask how in a cage is it harder stuff a takedown ? when you have the Cage to lean against and plant your feet i know you can be held there but the actually completing of a takedown while against a cage is extremely hard.
He means that its harder to stuff inside a cage then in a big open area. In the cage you hit the wall and can no longer move your hips away from the opponent -> easier to take down. Like almost everything else in grappling, hips are the key to the move.
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Old 03-04-2011, 06:53 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sambo de Amigo View Post
Can i ask how in a cage is it harder stuff a takedown ? when you have the Cage to lean against and plant your feet i know you can be held there but the actually completing of a takedown while against a cage is extremely hard.


You can't sprawl out against a cage. I can stuff a take-down no problem on an open mat, I actually have pretty lousy wrestling but I can stuff some pretty high level wrestlers when it's wide open.


In a cage though all they have to do is push you against the fence, and shoot low and pull your legs out under you. You can't sprawl and you need really strong underhooks to truly stuff it.
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Old 03-04-2011, 06:56 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I certainly score stopping a takedown, it can be very hard and requires an immense amount of skill/technique/strength/positioning. I however do not score a takedown nearly as much as the ufc. I score it the same as getting a dominant position (ie mount/back). Mostly because any idiot can take someone down, ever see a playground fight, you've probably seen a takedown. I score it more for how strong of a takedown it was, if the person being taken down got damaged from the take down, and whether or not it was used to further ending the fight or stall.

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You can't sprawl out against a cage. I can stuff a take-down no problem on an open mat, I actually have pretty lousy wrestling but I can stuff some pretty high level wrestlers when it's wide open.


In a cage though all they have to do is push you against the fence, and shoot low and pull your legs out under you. You can't sprawl and you need really strong underhooks to truly stuff it.
Depends on the wrestler. I personally, prefer a wide open space for grappling. I have a hell of a lot more luck with TDs in an open space than in a cage/ring. I also have a pretty good sprawl and scramble, so I can avoid it rather well.
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Old 03-04-2011, 07:15 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Takedown defence is not offensive. It is defensive. It is used so that the fighter can stay standing and initiate his own offence. If he can't get his offence going thats his problem.

Getting points for stuffing TD's is ridiculous. The point of fighting is to attack and damage the other person. If a guy has the cardio to constantly go for TD's the entire fight then good for him, you should not get points for defending what someone else does.

Should you get points for blocking punches? No. Should you get points for escaping submissions? No.

Fighting is about causing damage, only effective offense counts. Your defence serves the purpose of protecting yourself so you can optimise your offence.

At the same time, a guy should not be rewarded for constantly going for TD's if he can not complete them.

If you can take a guy down, you deserve points for that as you have been effective with your offence.

PS

Before anyone says TD's don't mean anything, they hurt.
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Old 03-04-2011, 07:16 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xeberus View Post
I certainly score stopping a takedown, it can be very hard and requires an immense amount of skill/technique/strength/positioning. I however do not score a takedown nearly as much as the ufc. I score it the same as getting a dominant position (ie mount/back). Mostly because any idiot can take someone down, ever see a playground fight, you've probably seen a takedown. I score it more for how strong of a takedown it was, if the person being taken down got damaged from the take down, and whether or not it was used to further ending the fight or stall.



Depends on the wrestler. I personally, prefer a wide open space for grappling. I have a hell of a lot more luck with TDs in an open space than in a cage/ring. I also have a pretty good sprawl and scramble, so I can avoid it rather well.


Worded like you disagree but you just backed everything I said up.



I have zero wrestling base but pretty good top control and no-gi bjj, my most solid tactic when grappling is stuffing someone's take-downs until they get frustrated and try to pull guard/rush in. It's the best way to get mount/side control when you can't actually take them down.
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Old 03-04-2011, 07:20 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brydon View Post
Takedown defence is not offensive. It is defensive. It is used so that the fighter can stay standing and initiate his own offence. If he can't get his offence going thats his problem.

Getting points for stuffing TD's is ridiculous. The point of fighting is to attack and damage the other person. If a guy has the cardio to constantly go for TD's the entire fight then good for him, you should not get points for defending what someone else does.

Should you get points for blocking punches? No. Should you get points for escaping submissions? No.

Fighting is about causing damage, only effective offense counts. Your defence serves the purpose of protecting yourself so you can optimise your offence.

At the same time, a guy should not be rewarded for constantly going for TD's if he can not complete them.

If you can take a guy down, you deserve points for that as you have been effective with your offence.

PS

Before anyone says TD's don't mean anything, they hurt.
the thing is that the person stopping the takedown is controlling his opponent and the octagon. its not just defending its controlling.

They don't always hurt, especially on the right kind of floor. Sometimes they do, depends on a lot of things, but typically they arent really damaging. Now on concrete or a hard surface, its gonna hurt like a bitch and be damaging.

Quote:
Worded like you disagree but you just backed everything I said up.



I have zero wrestling base but pretty good top control and no-gi bjj, my most solid tactic when grappling is stuffing someone's take-downs until they get frustrated and try to pull guard/rush in. It's the best way to get mount/side control when you can't actually take them down.
Well im a hypocrite, I have a wrestling base, some bjj and I take down, keep dominant position and win on points. Until there is no risk or a promising quick sub I play it safe as using a rubber with a virgin.
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Last edited by xeberus : 03-04-2011 at 07:31 PM.
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Old 03-04-2011, 07:31 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Frank Mir said awhile back that the fighter who goes for a takedown but is stuffed is the one who scores points, which I find odd.

In my opinion, takedown defense should score as octagon control. The fighter defending the takedown is keeping the fight standing and is therefore controlling where the fight takes place.
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Old 03-04-2011, 07:34 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by AlphaDawg View Post
Frank Mir said awhile back that the fighter who goes for a takedown but is stuffed is the one who scores points, which I find odd.

In my opinion, takedown defense should score as octagon control. The fighter defending the takedown is keeping the fight standing and is therefore controlling where the fight takes place.
This is why I would abandon most striking if I wanted to pursue an mma career. Take someone down, do just enough to not get stood up you win the round. Do it three times, you win a fight with minimal damage without actually having to fight. I may not like it but it makes a lot of sense for a fighter to do.
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Old 03-04-2011, 07:44 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xeberus View Post
This is why I would abandon most striking if I wanted to pursue an mma career. Take someone down, do just enough to not get stood up you win the round. Do it three times, you win a fight with minimal damage without actually having to fight. I may not like it but it makes a lot of sense for a fighter to do.
Agreed. Sweeps need to be drilled way harder in MMA camps, I've never been to a single gym that focuses on them anywhere near enough.


TDD/Sweeps is the #2 best skill to have perfected in MMA. #1 simply being the ability to take down and hold down.
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Old 03-04-2011, 07:50 PM   #20 (permalink)

 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaDawg View Post
Frank Mir said awhile back that the fighter who goes for a takedown but is stuffed is the one who scores points, which I find odd.

In my opinion, takedown defense should score as octagon control. The fighter defending the takedown is keeping the fight standing and is therefore controlling where the fight takes place.
Thats cause Frank is trying to make himself feel better because his wrestling is abysmal.
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