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Old 03-04-2011, 05:10 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Take down defense

At what point does Takedown Defense score for you? Is it part of octagon control? Is it worth nothing other than you are choosing where the fight takes place? To me it seems like at some point it should count for something.

The Diego/Kampmann fight is a perfect example. Diego goes 1 for 15 on takedowns and it is quite possibly that one takedown that gives him the edge in the fight. It just seems a bit wrong to me. Does anyone know/have any input?
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Old 03-04-2011, 05:27 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TomMMA View Post
At what point does Takedown Defense score for you? Is it part of octagon control? Is it worth nothing other than you are choosing where the fight takes place? To me it seems like at some point it should count for something.

The Diego/Kampmann fight is a perfect example. Diego goes 1 for 15 on takedowns and it is quite possibly that one takedown that gives him the edge in the fight. It just seems a bit wrong to me. Does anyone know/have any input?
I think, strictly speaking, according to the rules it counts as octagon control but no judges implement this for some strange reason. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong (and if possible provide a reference to prove it).
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Old 03-04-2011, 05:47 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I agree, take-down defense is a ridiculously undervalued skill in MMA scoring.



In a cage, it's much much harder to stuff a take-down than it is to complete one. Even if you can't shoot a fast double you can always drive them against the cage and get it from there.



I think judges confuse the cage pummeling with Randy Couture style clinch fighting. Let's say in JDS vs. Nelson, Nelson went for a takedown quite a few times and the couple of times Cigano couldn't shuck him off quick, Nelson had him temporarily pressed against the cage.


In pummeling, JDS was winning that exchange because he was stuffing the takedown. But from the judges perspective, Nelson was holding him against the cage, therefor "octagon control."



We need some judges who understand wrestling.
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Old 03-04-2011, 05:50 PM   #4 (permalink)

 
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Originally Posted by khoveraki View Post
I agree, take-down defense is a ridiculously undervalued skill in MMA scoring.



In a cage, it's much much harder to stuff a take-down than it is to complete one. Even if you can't shoot a fast double you can always drive them against the cage and get it from there.



I think judges confuse the cage pummeling with Randy Couture style clinch fighting. Let's say in JDS vs. Nelson, Nelson went for a takedown quite a few times and the couple of times Cigano couldn't shuck him off quick, Nelson had him temporarily pressed against the cage.


In pummeling, JDS was winning that exchange because he was stuffing the takedown. But from the judges perspective, Nelson was holding him against the cage, therefor "octagon control."



We need some judges who understand wrestling.
This, it does count under the current system its some judges and fans who do not understand what is going on that is the problem.
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Old 03-04-2011, 05:51 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by khoveraki View Post
We need some judges who understand wrestling.
Yes for sure!

And we need to change the judges mindset that agression=winning. Alot of fighters rely more on technical counter striking and those guys are at risk of loosing fights even if they were more effective.
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Old 03-04-2011, 05:53 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I wouldn't give points for stopping a takedown. I also wouldn't score points for blocking strikes. I would give points for getting a takedown and landing strikes. If you can stop your opponent from getting a takedown or landing strikes then you have stopped them from getting points but haven't got yourself closer to winning (well besides making them waste energy).
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Old 03-04-2011, 05:57 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dario03 View Post
I wouldn't give points for stopping a takedown. I also wouldn't score points for blocking strikes. I would give points for getting a takedown and landing strikes. If you can stop your opponent from getting a takedown or landing strikes then you have stopped them from getting points but haven't got yourself closer to winning (well besides making them waste energy).
Octagon control = controlling where the fight takes place and or it's pace.

A guy scored a TD = octagon control

When Diego shoots a double leg at Kampmann he thinks "I want to take this fight to the ground", when Kampmann stuffs that takedown he thinks "I wanna keep standing". If the result is that they keep standing then it's octagon control and should score.

However most judges don't realise that octagon control is pretty far down the priotity list and should only be considered when everything else (effective striking, grapping and aggression) are about equal or atleast sorta cancels out overall.

I realise that judging fights in an objective way is truly difficult but I'm sure it's possible to get some better judges! The last couple of months have been horrible, especially in Australia.
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Old 03-04-2011, 06:13 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I don’t see how a DEFENSIVE move scores points but you can’t give points to a fighter who gets 90% of their takedowns negated by superior TDD only to get a feeble takedown in later rounds doing no real damage and not attempting to advance position.

I agree with InkDot that the fighters who stuffs the majority of the takedowns and doesn’t sustain any damage from the few takedowns that are successful should be considered to have octagon control.

Placing so much of the fight score on takedowns that fail to result in ANY damage, no sub attempts and no attempt to advance position end up turning MMA into a tackling contest.

At least posture up and throw something or TRY and pass guard.

Kampmann’s TDD impressed me far more than Diego’s grappling ability.
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Old 03-04-2011, 06:15 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Stuffing TDs = octagon control, its in the unified rules.

also, Kampmann not only stuffed a boatload of TDs, he made Diego pay for them with knees, punches and elbows so really he was scoring in 2 ways. Controlling the octagon ands scoring points via strikes. He laid some well timed knees more than a few times from failed TDs.
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Old 03-04-2011, 06:19 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khoveraki View Post
I agree, take-down defense is a ridiculously undervalued skill in MMA scoring.



In a cage, it's much much harder to stuff a take-down than it is to complete one. Even if you can't shoot a fast double you can always drive them against the cage and get it from there.



I think judges confuse the cage pummeling with Randy Couture style clinch fighting. Let's say in JDS vs. Nelson, Nelson went for a takedown quite a few times and the couple of times Cigano couldn't shuck him off quick, Nelson had him temporarily pressed against the cage.


In pummeling, JDS was winning that exchange because he was stuffing the takedown. But from the judges perspective, Nelson was holding him against the cage, therefor "octagon control."



We need some judges who understand wrestling.

Can i ask how in a cage is it harder stuff a takedown ? when you have the Cage to lean against and plant your feet i know you can be held there but the actually completing of a takedown while against a cage is extremely hard.
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