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Old 03-09-2011, 01:15 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by edlavis88 View Post
I know sparring isn't the same as when you get in the octagon but Jones has been at Jackson's camp for over 18 months now... I'm pretty sure after 18 months of training with GSP, Rashad, Arlovski, Carwin, Condit, Noke, Schaub, Akiyama, Stann and the 30 + other world class guys they have there Jones must have been in pretty much every spot you can think of.
Of course. But, till we see it, how do we know?... and till we know??... then shit is unproven. Its not complicated really.

The word unproven exists for a reason. If we cant use it, what word should we use to describe the unseen skills of a fighter?

Its not like people are using words like rookie, noob, green amateur etc. Unproven is a perfectly reasonable word to use. Whats the big deal?
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:28 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I accept what you are saying. A fighter not getting into hairy situations should get some credit for avoiding them. But still, not having a single point of reference for a fighter in that situation leaves questions. That cant be denied.

Ive never assumed anything about a fighter. I only ask questions and speculate. Its not like I *want* Jones to wilt soon as he gets punched in the face. I want him to turn out to be absolutely the real deal. But till its "proven" we can only speculate.

I understand that the term "unproven" carries negativity with most fans. But to me, it simply means "unproven". Simple.

I agree it will be interesting to see what happens, when it does happen. There's nothing wrong with speculating, I think that why the sport appeals to alot of people. You never know what will happen until it happens.

Two bad*sses will get in the cage, and only one bada** will leave victorious. Well most of the time anyways. What you antisipate will happen until then is what makes the forum world go round.
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:45 PM   #13 (permalink)
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While it is true that a fighter is proven in MMA once they reach the pinnacle that is the UFC, they still have a lot to prove within the UFC.

For example Jon Jones and Shogun are both proven in the sense that they have made it to the top of their professions, but nobody can actual say that Jones is as proven as Shogun when looking at actual facts. This is why there is a ranking system. A fighter must prove themselves worthy.

Sometimes they get fast tracked such as Jones getting a title shot already.

But in a division full of fighters like Rampage, Evans, Machida, etc... a fighter that has not beaten any of the top fighters in the division is not proven since they have not proven that they can hang with anyone at the top.

Put it this way, if you get accepted to Harvard, you have proven you are very intelligent, but there is still much to accomplish within that college. You still have to prove you belong and that you can pass the hard challenges.

UFC fighters have to do the exact same thing.
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:46 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Soojooko View Post
Of course. But, till we see it, how do we know?... and till we know??... then shit is unproven. Its not complicated really.

The word unproven exists for a reason. If we cant use it, what word should we use to describe the unseen skills of a fighter?

Its not like people are using words like rookie, noob, green amateur etc. Unproven is a perfectly reasonable word to use. Whats the big deal?
I guess if you translate it to other sports its like saying a football team that goes to play in the Champions league is unproven in terms of that competition despite the fact they must be a good team to get there in the first place.
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:52 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Remember the Cain vs Lesnar fight. Going into that fight, Cain was considered unproven. The big question was, hows he gonna cope when Lesnar inevitably gets him down? In that split second, when Lesnar took Cain down, we all had our hearts in our mouths! It was an exciting moment. Questions answered at last!! The way Cain escaped and got up like it was nothing? I was like, wow!! In that second, respect for Cane grew amongst all that were watching. regardless of allegences. He went from unproven prospect, to a Champion, in that one moment. He took down Lesnar moments later and pounded on him, and that was it. Transformation complete. Very much "proven" now.

The point of my ramblings? That the "unproven" element, if anything, brings massive excitement to the game. Moments like the above. They are amazing. When questions become answers. Speculation becomes fact. Unproven becomes proven. Man... I live for that shit.

Bones being unproven is what makes the match up so intriguing. On the one hand, Rua may well turn out to be too much for him. On the other, we may discover that, when pushed to his limits, Bones Jones is utterly superb. If anybody is going to reveal that... its Rua. A beautiful matchup.
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:56 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Your correct, While Jones has fought good opponets he hasn't been tested by any of them yet. He also hasn't been placed in alot of compromising positions yet. I understand your point that at some point he will be in these situations, and how he performs under that pressure will uncover more about him.
You also have to take into account that Jones also has not fought anyone near the title picture. No contenders, top fighter. Nothing. He beat Vera and Bader and now gets fast tracked to the top.

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People point that out that a alot; that fighter hasn't been this position or that position. Instead of doubting the fighter, shouldn't we applaud him, because isn't that usually part the plan, to avoid bad situations?
I do applaud him, but does this mean that we should assume he would beat every top fighter and just give him the champ as well? Forrest is on a 2 fight win streak. Rampage just beat Machida. Machida is still a top fighter. Why does Jones skip all of them and get Shogun?

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I tend to look more at what I have seen, not what I haven't. If a fighter hasn't been in bad position. Good for him. He must have good enough skills to avoid those situations, at least so far.
Me too. I see that while Jones has me impressed, there are also other fighters that are in a similar situation. Thiago Silva while he lost to Rashad, hurt him badly and actually made it a great fight. He demolished Vera as did Jones. He also finished Jardine. In my opinion, they are in a similar spot. But Jones gets a shot at the title?

Forrest beat Franklin who is better than anyone Jones has even fought but is nowhere in the title talks. But yet Jones gets an actual shot.

Rampage is most definitely ranked higher, but Jones gets to skip him as well?


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While many assume that a fighter will perform poorly in those position until they prove otherwise. I chose to assume that a fighter will perform positively in those positions until they prove otherwise.
Right and he should prove he can survive before getting thrown to the top.He didn't have to prove it against a top LHW, the UFC pretty much gift wrapped a title shot.
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Old 03-09-2011, 02:03 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Generally speaking, this is true. However, there are exceptions (e.g., Brock Lesnar).

Anyway, for me personally, I've never really thought about this, but I guess it comes down to the rankings. More often than not, a win against a top ten guy or even a decent showing is enough for me to consider someone "proven."
There are more exceptions than that, to be honest some right mugs have made it thought TUF and unfortunately thanks to the popularity of the show the divisions keep filling up more and more with these second rate fighters, this is part of the reason I think some fighters like GSP for example, Anderson Silva hard proving to be so dominant because the UFC rely s to much on TUF and no little on hunting the circuit for real talent to fill its ranks.

For me they run TUF way to often and its having a downside effect on the quality been listed in the UFC, pretty soon there will be nothing left to compete in the UFC other than "TUF Trash"
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Old 03-09-2011, 03:43 PM   #18 (permalink)
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You also have to take into account that Jones also has not fought anyone near the title picture. No contenders, top fighter. Nothing. He beat Vera and Bader and now gets fast tracked to the top.



I do applaud him, but does this mean that we should assume he would beat every top fighter and just give him the champ as well? Forrest is on a 2 fight win streak. Rampage just beat Machida. Machida is still a top fighter. Why does Jones skip all of them and get Shogun?

Me too. I see that while Jones has me impressed, there are also other fighters that are in a similar situation. Thiago Silva while he lost to Rashad, hurt him badly and actually made it a great fight. He demolished Vera as did Jones. He also finished Jardine. In my opinion, they are in a similar spot. But Jones gets a shot at the title?

Forrest beat Franklin who is better than anyone Jones has even fought but is nowhere in the title talks. But yet Jones gets an actual shot.

Rampage is most definitely ranked higher, but Jones gets to skip him as well?




Right and he should prove he can survive before getting thrown to the top.He didn't have to prove it against a top LHW, the UFC pretty much gift wrapped a title shot.
Nice rebutal. As for rankings I have Rampage, Evans, and Machida all above Bones for the very reasons you stated. I went back and forth with him and Forrest at #5, and finally gave the higher position to Jones mainly because of activity. Your right He hasn't defeated any former Champions. I undertand that others have more impressive wins, but since Jones has only been in MMA for three years, how can you expect his resume to compare to those that you mentioned.

There are two reason he has been fast-tracked. One, he has been very exciting. Excitment sells tickets. So from a business aspect the match-up makes alot of sense to the UFC. I mean their pretty much promoting it, with the stuff we are discussing daily. Old Vet vs. New Lion. Proven vs. Untested.

Second he has pasted every test with flying colors. The keep on give him progessively tougher opponets and no one has found an answer for him.

Plus lets look at the other guys you mention.

Rashadd: Had the fight had to pull out

Machida: Just loss, this isn't Strikeforce no gets a shot after a loss, however I personally think he won.

Forrest: I knew he was suspended after his last fight. I'm not sure if he can fight yet.

but to be competely honest that fight happened after Jones was awarded the fight. I love Forrest but let's face it he's been kinda spotty and unactively lately.

Page: Is who I figured they would give the fight to. But he was schulded to fight Thiago at the time, but its not like that haven't changed fights before.
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Old 03-09-2011, 03:47 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I wouldn't have been upset if they did give the fight to one of those you metioned. But I am also excited for this fight.

I like Shogun I'm just playing devils avocate because most seemed to be rooting for Shogun and I don't really care. I just want to see a battle.
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Old 03-09-2011, 04:04 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Beating a guy that is higher or nearly ranked the same as said fighter.

To me you have to prove it. If you and your fans think you are top 5..then beat a top 5 guy. If you are getting hyped as a top 10 fighter...then beat a top 10 fighter...and so on.
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