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Old 03-09-2011, 11:11 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Exclamation Unproven vs Proven fighters

Hello All,

After going through several forums generally discussing Jones v/Bader, Jones/Rua Schaub v/Cro-Cop I keep seeing the general statement that "Oh that fighter is unproven in the octagon how can you say he's good?"

What does a fighter have to do in YOUR opinion to be proven?

IMHO anybody even fighting in the UFC is proven to an extent since the UFC hosts the top fighters in the world, it's not like these guys come off the streets and jump into some TapOut shorts and throw down like champs...They all proved themselves to get to where they are so..why the hate?
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:22 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by c-dub View Post
IMHO anybody even fighting in the UFC is proven to an extent since the UFC hosts the top fighters in the world, it's not like these guys come off the streets and jump into some TapOut shorts and throw down like champs...They all proved themselves to get to where they are so..why the hate?
Generally speaking, this is true. However, there are exceptions (e.g., Brock Lesnar).

Anyway, for me personally, I've never really thought about this, but I guess it comes down to the rankings. More often than not, a win against a top ten guy or even a decent showing is enough for me to consider someone "proven."
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:00 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Well not to start a huge arguement about this Lesnar did have MMA fights before making it into the UFC.

*BUT*

I suppose that's true, how is it then that I see people saying that a fighter like Jon "Bones" Jones is not proven? I mean he has shown domination in almost all of his bouts. I just don't understand the logic in some people's arguements.
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:06 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by c-dub View Post
Well not to start a huge arguement about this Lesnar did have MMA fights before making it into the UFC.

*BUT*

I suppose that's true, how is it then that I see people saying that a fighter like Jon "Bones" Jones is not proven? I mean he has shown domination in almost all of his bouts. I just don't understand the logic in some people's arguements.
Brock has 1 fight before the UFC... against a guy with a record of 2-5... thats pretty unproven in the sport.

Jones is definitely proven though - beating the likes of Matyushenko and Bonnar may be unimpressive to some armchair fans but i think most appreciate that it takes a genuinely talented fighter to do it.
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:36 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I think people put too much stock into who a fighter beat years and years ago. The sport evolves every year, and fighters evolve as well as devolve. An amateur pro isn't the same as an amateur pro years ago. The young guys are learning things much faster and they are being taught MMA, not just BJJ, wrestling, Muay Thai, etc...
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:41 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by c-dub View Post
Well not to start a huge arguement about this Lesnar did have MMA fights before making it into the UFC.

*BUT*

I suppose that's true, how is it then that I see people saying that a fighter like Jon "Bones" Jones is not proven? I mean he has shown domination in almost all of his bouts. I just don't understand the logic in some people's arguements.
Hes unproven in the sense that we haven't seen him in various scenarios yet. There are still lots of questions. How good is his chin? How will he deal with being under pressure for the first time? Is he any good off his back? Is he any good at defending submissions? Proven fighters on the other hand have been tested. Rua for example, has been in every conceivable MMA position and done well... assuming hes in reasonable health.

when I call a fighter unproven, its not ment to be any kind of insult. Just simply another way of saying hes been untested. Bones has been under zero pressure so far.
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:08 PM   #7 (permalink)
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This is a great thread. I posted something to this extent in the "Is shogun overhyped" thread. It's hard to compare someone like Jones's resume, who has just reach the Championship, to someone like Shogun's resume who has been at that level for a long time.

So if you want to refer to Shogun as a proven fighter and to Jones as an unproven fighter. Go ahead, but what does it all really mean?

Yes, Shogun has more experience, if that's what they mean. And I'm sure that experience will come into play at certain points in the fight. But it's not like Jones has fought a bunch of nobodies. While his resume might not look as impressive as Shogun's; Vera, Hamill, Vlady, and Bader are all good fighters, and none came anywhere close to finding an answer for the guy. So isn't that proof enough.

That is why I hate the term "unproven fighter" used, especially with Jones's name attached. I tell you one thing no one has PROVEN they can deal with his skill level yet.

Has Shogun proven he is a Championship level fighter? Yes. Can Jones prove this? Who knows, that's why they put on the fight. Jones still has that sense of invicability surrounding him. The question is will Rua be the one to show he is a mearly a human and has holes like the rest? BC every fighter has a hole or two, it's just a matter of time until it's exposed. Will Rua lift the curtain on the Bones Jones magic show, or will we have to wait a while to see how the magician makes his hands move faster than our eyes? That's what makes the sport so interesting. We can discuss records, quality opponets, strenghts and weakness, all we want but until the fight actually happens, it all means squat. I've been watching MMA for a long time and every time I think I have it figured out someone shows a new aspoect to their game.


Ex. GSP was prodominatly a kickboxer, up until he fought first Koscheck fight. Now he's one of the most dominate wrestlers in all of MMA.

That's why they train. To become a better fighter than they were in the last fight, to sure up weaknesses, and to put a new tools they didn't have before in their toolbelt.

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Old 03-09-2011, 01:35 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Soojooko View Post
Hes unproven in the sense that we haven't seen him in various scenarios yet. There are still lots of questions. How good is his chin? How will he deal with being under pressure for the first time? Is he any good off his back? Is he any good at defending submissions? Proven fighters on the other hand have been tested. Rua for example, has been in every conceivable MMA position and done well... assuming hes in reasonable health.

when I call a fighter unproven, its not ment to be any kind of insult. Just simply another way of saying hes been untested. Bones has been under zero pressure so far.
Your correct, While Jones has fought good opponets he hasn't been tested by any of them yet. He also hasn't been placed in alot of compromising positions yet. I understand your point that at some point he will be in these situations, and how he performs under that pressure will uncover more about him.

People point that out that a alot; that fighter hasn't been this position or that position. Instead of doubting the fighter, shouldn't we applaud him, because isn't that usually part the plan, to avoid bad situations?

I tend to look more at what I have seen, not what I haven't. If a fighter hasn't been in bad position. Good for him. He must have good enough skills to avoid those situations, at least so far.

While many assume that a fighter will perform poorly in those position until they prove otherwise. I chose to assume that a fighter will perform positively in those positions until they prove otherwise.
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:54 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by LTrain5563 View Post
Your correct, While Jones has fought good opponets he hasn't been tested by any of them yet. He also hasn't been placed in alot of compromising positions yet. I understand your point that at some point he will be in these situations, and how he performs under that pressure will uncover more about him.

People point that out that a alot; that fighter hasn't been this position or that position. Instead of doubting the fighter, shouldn't we applaud him, because isn't that usually part the plan, to avoid bad situations?

I tend to look more at what I have seen, not what I haven't. If a fighter hasn't been in bad position. Good for him. He must have good enough skills to avoid those situations, at least so far.

While many assume that a fighter will perform poorly in those position until they prove otherwise. I chose to assume that a fighter will perform positively in those positions until they prove otherwise.
I accept what you are saying. A fighter not getting into hairy situations should get some credit for avoiding them. But still, not having a single point of reference for a fighter in that situation leaves questions. That cant be denied.

Ive never assumed anything about a fighter. I only ask questions and speculate. Its not like I *want* Jones to wilt soon as he gets punched in the face. I want him to turn out to be absolutely the real deal. But till its "proven" we can only speculate.

I understand that the term "unproven" carries negativity with most fans. But to me, it simply means "unproven". Simple.
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Old 03-09-2011, 02:07 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I know sparring isn't the same as when you get in the octagon but Jones has been at Jackson's camp for over 18 months now... I'm pretty sure after 18 months of training with GSP, Rashad, Arlovski, Carwin, Condit, Noke, Schaub, Akiyama, Stann and the 30 + other world class guys they have there Jones must have been in pretty much every spot you can think of.
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