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Old 03-16-2011, 08:56 AM   #81 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Mckeever View Post
Because there is no real competition or any real challenge for him at that weight class.

You look at a champion like Pacman, who has moved up through weight classes to further challenge himself and still destroy the competition. Look at his last fight with Margarito, the difference in size was staggering, he still put a clinic on him. BJ Penn, another champion who moved up in weight for the challenge and captured the gold at Welterweight.

GSP talks about how he embraces the challenge, yet Anderson Silva is really his only true challenge and competition and he gives off all the signals that he wants no part of the fight. I just don't understand this.

it is so very rare in combat sports where you have the number one and number two pound for pound fighters separated by just one weight class. This is a once in a life time opportunity.

If GSP defeats Shields in impressive fashion and he is still questioning challenging Anderson, then I really question his motives. After all, it wasnt long ago that he was considering competing in the Olympics for wrestling and giving up MMA.

I just don't see why either fighter wouldn't want to fight.
Few key differences.

In boxing weight classes are ALOT closer in weight.

If i remember correctly the weight difference was that of 6 pounds?? Pac was like 144 and mar was 150?? Iv seen people in MMA give out 30-40 pounds.

In boxing physical strength does not play nearly as big of a difference as it does in MMA. (Many fighters have said this, on top of my head i can think of Musasi) In MMA body to body contact is an extremely important aspect. In boxing it doesnt play nearly as big of a part for the sheer reason that the main aspect of boxing is punching and moving. So 15 pounds in boxing wont make nearly the difference then 15 pounds would if you have that person laying on top of you.

If GSP took the fight as quick as everyone wants him to then there is a good chance that Silva would be 20-25pounds heavier then GSP come fight time. If GSP did things the right way and take a year to bulk up. Anderson Silva would still have a healthy 5-10 pounds on him and lets not ignore the Height and reach advantage. GSP would have to swing UPWARD while Silva would be swinging in a perfect straight should length line. GSP's face could not be a better jab target.


ALL OF THIS means that GSP going up to MW is silly and pointless. I want to see GSP challenge himself by keeping the belt for another 5-10 years which could mean another 15-30 fights. Then retire on top.

THAT WOULD BE A LEGENDARY MMA FIGHTER. GO DOWN WITH THE GREATS LIKE BRUCE LEE!!
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Old 03-16-2011, 08:56 AM   #82 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by John8204 View Post
The ones that looked at Yushin going for six take downs, getting the fight to the ground landing a few good shots, Anderson getting in trouble throwing a vastly illegal kick.

If Yushin kept it on the ground for the rest of the two minutes in the round he would have taken the round 10-9.

Unless you think the fight Anderson had with the ref when he pulled him off Okami was the dominating performance of the fight.

I know Okami was backing up and away for most of the fight, but aren't some of you the same ones who thought Kampmann beat Sanchez for doing the same thing?
What drugs are you on? Can I have some because planet normal is starting to bore me and wherever your head is I want to be there too

He went for about 6 takedowns and failed about 5 of them? If he had of held Silva down for the next 2 mins you really think he takes that round? The guy has shown you the video of the fight and you can't see past the hater shades Okami after a long break to recover was asked if he would like to continue, accounts state he was fine but choose to bitch out and take the DQ.

As for the whole Sanchez vs Kampmann comparison did you see Sanchez's face after the fight?
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Old 03-16-2011, 09:01 AM   #83 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Mckeever View Post
Because there is no real competition or any real challenge for him at that weight class.
No competition? Jake Shields, Martin Kampmann, Diego Sanchez, Paulo Thiago, people are talking about a 2nd fight with Fitch as well. Heck, I have seen a number of people talking about a fight with Penn again. And as you said, there are always new up and comers and they will have plenty of time while GSP is fighting to make it through the ranks.

Quote:
You look at a champion like Pacman, who has moved up through weight classes to further challenge himself and still destroy the competition. Look at his last fight with Margarito, the difference in size was staggering, he still put a clinic on him. BJ Penn, another champion who moved up in weight for the challenge and captured the gold at Welterweight.
I don't understand why GSP needs to do it just because others have. There are also plenty of champions who have stayed at their weeight classes.

Also, boxing has so many divisions, that they are quite shallow in talent when looking at a specific weight class. The UFC divisions are completely the opposite of this.


Quote:
GSP talks about how he embraces the challenge, yet Anderson Silva is really his only true challenge and competition and he gives off all the signals that he wants no part of the fight. I just don't understand this.
He never said he didn't want the fight at all. He said if he is going up in weight, then that is where he is staying. I don't see how that can be taken as him saying he wants nothing to do with Silva.

Quote:
it is so very rare in combat sports where you have the number one and number two pound for pound fighters separated by just one weight class. This is a once in a life time opportunity.
Right and don't get me wrong, I would LOVE for this fight to happen so much. BUT, us wanting the fight does not mean that GSP should revamp his career because of it.

Quote:
If GSP defeats Shields in impressive fashion and he is still questioning challenging Anderson, then I really question his motives. After all, it wasnt long ago that he was considering competing in the Olympics for wrestling and giving up MMA.
Right, but that didn't happen so it is pretty irrelevant. Like I previously posted, if he beats Shields, there are still fights for him at WW.

Quote:
I just don't see why either fighter wouldn't want to fight.
Neither has said they do not want to fight. GSP has just stated that if he did take it, then he isn;t going back to WW which means a complete career change.
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Old 03-16-2011, 09:13 AM   #84 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SideWays222 View Post
Few key differences.

In boxing weight classes are ALOT closer in weight.

If i remember correctly the weight difference was that of 6 pounds?? Pac was like 144 and mar was 150?? Iv seen people in MMA give out 30-40 pounds.

In boxing physical strength does not play nearly as big of a difference as it does in MMA. (Many fighters have said this, on top of my head i can think of Musasi) In MMA body to body contact is an extremely important aspect. In boxing it doesnt play nearly as big of a part for the sheer reason that the main aspect of boxing is punching and moving. So 15 pounds in boxing wont make nearly the difference then 15 pounds would if you have that person laying on top of you.

If GSP took the fight as quick as everyone wants him to then there is a good chance that Silva would be 20-25pounds heavier then GSP come fight time. If GSP did things the right way and take a year to bulk up. Anderson Silva would still have a healthy 5-10 pounds on him and lets not ignore the Height and reach advantage. GSP would have to swing UPWARD while Silva would be swinging in a perfect straight should length line. GSP's face could not be a better jab target.


ALL OF THIS means that GSP going up to MW is silly and pointless. I want to see GSP challenge himself by keeping the belt for another 5-10 years which could mean another 15-30 fights. Then retire on top.

THAT WOULD BE A LEGENDARY MMA FIGHTER. GO DOWN WITH THE GREATS LIKE BRUCE LEE!!
Nice post. I think I can safely withdraw from this ridiculous debate, warm in the knowledge that there are so many of us who don't see the point of this fight. It comforts me. What comforts me even more is how angry the superfighters get at the suggestion that their superfight is actually freakshow rubbish that proves nothing at all.
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Old 03-16-2011, 09:27 AM   #85 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by HitOrGetHit View Post
[font="Verdana"]]
[/quote]

yes don't get me wrong, I understand why boxing match making is so much harder than mma. The UFC have their fighters signed to central contracts and have the own championship belt to fight for in every division.

No rival organisations like the WBA/WBO only rival compaines which fighters would have to see out their UFC contract to move to. No fighters being tied up with conflicting tv compaines or any other arguments like purse splits and who wins the bidding rights to promote etc.

I do think however (like I said) mma as it has gained fame has also moved away from the old days of very active fighters who would be less concerned with the win/loss record and more with who they fight and how they fight.

I'm not saying GSP should move up if he feels he has unfinished business in his weight class, by all means stay there for another 3 years and continue to dominate.

I don't see how this conflicts with him fighting Anderson in a catchweight bout, he could do this without losing his WW crown and win or lose afterwards continue his domination of the WW divison.

I agree a fight shouldn't happen just because the fans want it to, otherwise we could see a return to the old David and Golaith style matches and that would be foolish (I'd be rooting for K1 grand prix style end of year tournaments but I never expect to see that in the UFC for example)

But as I said, back in the days when fighters were less concerned with their win loss ratio I think we has fans were treated to bigger better fights more often.

I'd see more value in a fighter fighting 4 tough guys and being in amazing fights winning 2 losing 2 than the same guy fighting and winning 4 times against lesser opposition.

I have been saying for a while that I thought the size difference and quality of each fighter makes this a mismatch, which was my reasoning for wanting to see Silva tested against bigger guys like Shogun but then I thought maybe I am doing a disservice to GSP.

They are close enough in weight to make the match happen, at a catch weight that would suit both, non title 3 rounds (maybe giving a slight aid to GSP as he would be required to use his wrestling for a shorter period to win) and I don't see why this couldn't happen nor why it would effect either fighters plans for the future.

The problem is a loss is starting to be perceived as more damaging than it once was, I mean we were talking about whether Machida would be cut if he lost again even though he has so far only lost a title fight and a close decision to a top rated fighter.

Its this change in perception that makes the fight less likely to happen, if as in days gone by (or like you see in Thai boxing events today) a loss is written off as no particular big deal you just get on and win the next one I doubt GSP would have too many reservations about the fight as it would surely be a great challenge for him.

I do personally think perhaps the marketing side of the UFC have doubts as to what is more valuable to them, a superfight between the two fighters billed as the P4P champs or to keep both apart and continue to host fighters promoting each as p4p greats.

I think looking at Silva now, at his age and having achieved what he has there is little point him being involved in anything less than super fights from here on out. He has nothing less to prove (maybe you can say the same of GSP) and the only fights I really see of interest are the rematch with sonnen (because of the close nature of the first match) and then a GSP or a Shogun or someone of that kind of stature.

I mean it gets to the stage where what is the point of seeing over dominant champions beating up on people you doubt have a chance to beat them? GReat for their legacy? maybe, but to me being involved in wars and super fights is equally if not more valuable to their legacy win, lose or draw.

As for not wanting Silva to become the LHW champ, well if that was really a problem it could be a non title match up done simple for the pleasure of seeing two greats go at it or indeed to present more impressive challenges to a great fighter in Silva.
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Old 03-16-2011, 09:34 AM   #86 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SideWays222 View Post
Few key differences.

In boxing weight classes are ALOT closer in weight.

If i remember correctly the weight difference was that of 6 pounds?? Pac was like 144 and mar was 150?? Iv seen people in MMA give out 30-40 pounds.

In boxing physical strength does not play nearly as big of a difference as it does in MMA. (Many fighters have said this, on top of my head i can think of Musasi) In MMA body to body contact is an extremely important aspect. In boxing it doesnt play nearly as big of a part for the sheer reason that the main aspect of boxing is punching and moving. So 15 pounds in boxing wont make nearly the difference then 15 pounds would if you have that person laying on top of you.

If GSP took the fight as quick as everyone wants him to then there is a good chance that Silva would be 20-25pounds heavier then GSP come fight time. If GSP did things the right way and take a year to bulk up. Anderson Silva would still have a healthy 5-10 pounds on him and lets not ignore the Height and reach advantage. GSP would have to swing UPWARD while Silva would be swinging in a perfect straight should length line. GSP's face could not be a better jab target.


ALL OF THIS means that GSP going up to MW is silly and pointless. I want to see GSP challenge himself by keeping the belt for another 5-10 years which could mean another 15-30 fights. Then retire on top.

THAT WOULD BE A LEGENDARY MMA FIGHTER. GO DOWN WITH THE GREATS LIKE BRUCE LEE!!
6 Pounds? Did you watch the fight? The difference was enormous. Manny has moved through multiple weight classes, not just one:





Margarito had a big reach advantage over Manny, didnt stop Pacman from doing his thing.

Heres the thing. GSP is stronger than Anderson, so it kind of negates that point. On top of that, he also has the best MMA wrestling in the game. GSP would have no problem double legging Andy and dumping him onto the mat. He'd have no problem with him in the clinch against the cage either. Anderson maybe the bigger man, but the strength goes to GSP here. Anderson maskes up for it with his long limbs, elusiveness and reach advantage.

GSP should have been preparing and thinking about this fight for a long time now. Now he wants another full year to bulk up properly.

I also mentioned BJ Penn who is an MMA fighter and has won the belt at welterweitght. As some one pointd out earlier, i dont remember people trying to hold BJ back when he wanted to move up and fight GSP, it was fine for BJ (who is a small lightweight) to move up and challenge the p4p best, but GSP moving up its another story.

You will never see a fight of this magnitude in MMA where the two very best are only separated by one weight class. How can you want to see GSP steam roll through the WW "contenders" for another year or two, rather than see the real challenge and the biggest fight in MMA history?
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Old 03-16-2011, 09:41 AM   #87 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by HitOrGetHit View Post
[font="Verdana"]No competition? Jake Shields, Martin Kampmann, Diego Sanchez, Paulo Thiago, people are talking about a 2nd fight with Fitch as well.
I'll be honest with you, I would have very little interest in seeing GSP fight any of those guys, no more so than when he thought Dan Hardy.

I'd watch because its a GSP fight and he is a big deal in the world of mma, but none of those names mentioned really do a lot to raise the profile of the fight further than it being a GSP title defense.

I'm not opposed to him staying at WW and spending the next 5 years beating up on these type of guys, its up to the talent in the division to provide a challenge for him.

As a fan however I'd really like to see him fighting a top guy who can make you excited to see the fight and not no who will win....kind of like the second fight with Hughes when he won the title (which at the time seemed like a massive fight, more so than any GSP fight I can remember since in my view anyway)
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Old 03-16-2011, 09:51 AM   #88 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by HitOrGetHit View Post
]No competition? Jake Shields, Martin Kampmann, Diego Sanchez, Paulo Thiago, people are talking about a 2nd fight with Fitch as well. Heck, I have seen a number of people talking about a fight with Penn again. And as you said, there are always new up and comers and they will have plenty of time while GSP is fighting to make it through the ranks.
I look forwards to the Shields fight because I believe he's the GSP's only real test at WW. Kampmann, Sanchez, Thiago, really? We all know the outcome of these fights before they ever happen. GSP would have no troubles steam rolling right through them. BJ and Fitch included. How can you be interested to see those fights when its obvious they pose no real threat to GSP?

Quote:
I don't understand why GSP needs to do it just because others have. There are also plenty of champions who have stayed at their weeight classes.

Also, boxing has so many divisions, that they are quite shallow in talent when looking at a specific weight class. The UFC divisions are completely the opposite of this.
Because of the challenge, thats what champions strive for right? The challenge? To leave a legacy, to go down as the greatest ever. Kampmann, Sanchez and Fitch arn't challenges. There are no real challenges for him at WW after Shields. Silva is GSP's only real threat and challenge, he knows it and everyone else does.

Yes that is true, but Manny has moved up through multiple classes and took on guys clearly much bigger than him (check the pics)



Quote:
He never said he didn't want the fight at all. He said if he is going up in weight, then that is where he is staying. I don't see how that can be taken as him saying he wants nothing to do with Silva.
I think it's obvious he doesnt really want the fight. he's never enthusiastic about the idea and it just seems like he's fishing for excuses. I ask myself, if i was in GSP's and I had pretty much destroyed everyone in the WW division and lower weight classes, what would I want to do? There is this guy one weight class apart who people call the p4p number 1, I would want to challenge that guy ASAP. I would jump at the oppurtinity if i was in GSP's position. I would want to prove I was the best ever. It just seems that GSP isnt at all enthusiastic about the situation.


Quote:
Right and don't get me wrong, I would LOVE for this fight to happen so much. BUT, us wanting the fight does not mean that GSP should revamp his career because of it.




Right, but that didn't happen so it is pretty irrelevant. Like I previously posted, if he beats Shields, there are still fights for him at WW.



Neither has said they do not want to fight. GSP has just stated that if he did take it, then he isn;t going back to WW which means a complete career change.
Well then what about a catch weight? Then it doesn't have to be a complete career revamp. Have it at a catch weight, fight this guy and prove that you are the best p4p number 1.
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Old 03-16-2011, 10:11 AM   #89 (permalink)
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well he's not enthusiastic about the idea because, and he said it, he has another fight to focus on, and this is the one against Shields.

What use would it be for him to blah about the andy fight while he's supposed to be preparing for Shields ?

I'm pretty sure all who now call him a pu**y would have called him "disrespectful" if he was talking bout andy while preparing for Shields.

haters gonna hate

That being said, I don't see GSP winning against silva, all I can see is him getting caught while shooting for a TD

I see GSP winning a rematch tho, but as it is now, I'm pretty sure silva would take him out just as easily he took out just about anyone else
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Old 03-16-2011, 10:17 AM   #90 (permalink)
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well he's not enthusiastic about the idea because, and he said it, he has another fight to focus on, and this is the one against Shields.

What use would it be for him to blah about the andy fight while he's supposed to be preparing for Shields ?

I'm pretty sure all who now call him a pu**y would have called him "disrespectful" if he was talking bout andy while preparing for Shields.

haters gonna hate

That being said, I don't see GSP winning against silva, all I can see is him getting caught while shooting for a TD

I see GSP winning a rematch tho, but as it is now, I'm pretty sure silva would take him out just as easily he took out just about anyone else
I really do hope thats the case, after Shields, we'll see how he likes the idea then.

I have GSP winning. Stylistically, he's almost the prototype to beat Anderson. Andy's biggest weakness is his wrestling, GSP happens to have the bet damn MMA wrestling in the game. On top of that, hes got great sub defense and great striking himself.

I think GSP would easily shrug off any sub attempts from Andy and control him for the majority of the fight.
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