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Old 03-27-2011, 02:59 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Let's have a credits bet on the Machida fight??

I put up 300k
Ha-ha, I'm not putting up my precious credits! 300k would bankrupt me.

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Old 03-27-2011, 03:07 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Ha-ha, I'm not putting up my precious credits! 300k would bankrupt me.

Sig-bet?
I have already a sig bet with Toxic but I would offer you a bet with a lower credits choice? You decide how much you want to put up. I give you 3:1 odds on top of that!
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Old 03-27-2011, 03:12 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Jones definitely looked tired at the end of the second against Shogun. But then again Shogun looked exhausted halfway through the first round.

That being said Jones came out with his usual aggression and overpowered exhausted Shogun in the third for the finish. I attribute the 3rd to adrenaline. It was obvious to anyone with a brain who was winning that fight. I think Jones knew in his corner before the third that it would end there. That adrenaline spike was what propelled him to victory (all IMO of course).

I think he has untested cardio. Does that mean he'll wheese like an asthmatic buffalo after 3 rounds? No. Does it mean he's some kind of cardio machine? Hell, no. No one knows what will happen when Jones goes 5 rounds.
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Old 03-27-2011, 03:13 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Ha-ha, I'm not putting up my precious credits! 300k would bankrupt me.

Sig-bet?
Or would you accept a 200k bet with the exception that Lyoto needs to finish Couture?
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Old 03-27-2011, 03:26 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I'll think about it, lol.
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Old 03-27-2011, 03:48 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I think that you are too harsh on Jones here. It does matter that it was Rua/ an elite fighter at a way higher level than his past opponents. Yes, Rua was hurt early, but not in a way to get shut down easily. With his experience Rua was always dangerous to Jones which the latter could only neutralise by putting constant pressure on his opponent (and by quite intelligently disrupting his opponent's rhythm). Because of the pressure, from both sides, it was a very exhausting fight for both fighters. Had Jones gone more for an early finish he really would have risked to gas and be overcome if Rua had managed to bounce back into the game.

The way Jones fought that fight was the optimum he could do with his current skills and abilities (which probably will still improve). I think he couldn't have done it otherwise without raising the risks very much. If he had lowered his pace focussing on a 5 round fight he would have left openings for Rua to imply his game and if he had looked for the finish earlier he would have risk to really gas.

So for the original question whether Jones would survive five rounds. In a fight similar to the Rua fight, without getting a TKO in Round 3, I think Jones would get into trouble in the later rounds. The constant pressure would take its toll, but Machida is not Rua. Machida's fighting style is different from Rua's. Jones wouldn't need to put the same constant pressure on Machida as he did on Rua. So if he is intelligent/cautious enough to pace himself, Jones has a very good chance of surviving five rounds with Machida.

However I also think that Machida with his fighting style could have one of the best chances to win against Jones if he can avoid major damage due to his elusiveness and bring good counters. In a pure pressure vs. pressure fight it seems that no one can compete with Jones at the moment (besides a lucky punch).
But the point is, Rua vs Jones was not a particularly fast paced fight. It was tactically hard for both of them, but it was not a body tester. Rua got hit hard early, was on the bottom, and was fighting a much bigger man, so him running out of steam is explainable without even mentioning his surgery etc. If Rua could have bounced back into the game he would have, it's only his physical toughness, ground defense, and Jon tiring that let it go on for longer. Rua would not have bounced back if Jon went in for the kill earlier, it would have been too much.

Jones took much less damage, was always in advantageous positions on the ground, and could throw strikes well out of Rua's range, but by the start of round 2 he was noticeably tired. That is not just down to pressure, he doesn't have a fantastic gas tank right now and he is a big man. He's bigger than many HW's, there's a reason they don't bother cutting to 205.

I've said it before and I'm calling it now, it doesn't matter what type of fight Jones is in, who he is fighting or how much pressure is involved, he will have cardio problems past round 2 and it will be because he is in the wrong weight division. You can say Jon did the smart thing by not trying to finish Shogun earlier, but Shogun was rocked, tired, and wasn't presenting any solid offense. To me that means Jones either doesn't have killer instinct, or was too tired for no good reason, and I don't think he lacks killer instinct.

I'm just not impressed by this monster cutting weight, steamrolling smaller and more skilled guys but maybe knowing that he is not as fit as he could be. To me that is an incomplete fighter taking advantage of his youth and size, I'd rather see him put on some mass, fight bigger guys and know that he can compete with them in terms of fitness, it's not like he would lose his reach advantage[the deciding factor in his LHW fights] he just wouldn't be able to rely on it so much and he'd probably be healthier.
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Old 03-27-2011, 06:14 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I am a biased fan. Yes I am.

I realised long time ago, that people will always have something to complain about any fighter, no matter how good he is or no matter how impressive he wins.
But, idk...in Jones' case i feel like he is getting too much shit.
And by no means he's getting the respect he deserves.
The respect that a champion deserves.
Before vers everyone wanted to know how he would do against a good Muay Thai fighter. He destroyed him, but it was no good because he left his arm for 0.5 seconds and he could have gotten in trouble.

Before Bader, everyone wanted to know how he would do against a strong-solid wrester with big power in his hands. Jones made him look silly, but still it wasn't impressive.

Before Shogun it was all about how he would do on the feet against a world class muay thai fighter with an excellent ground game and a solid bottom game/guard, with famous sweeps. He dismantled Shogun like no one before him. Dominated on the feet and on the ground. It was Shogun's worst defeat ever. The same Shogun that people labeled as the best LHW in the world and possibly the greatest LHW ever.
BUT...still something was wrong with Jones:
- he should have been more aggressive (rip Shogun's head off maybe)
- he should have "finished Shogun earlier (first 20 seconds maybe?!)
- he should have landed better strikes (matrix style maybe)
- he should have submitted Shogun by flying armbar maybe

Ooooh well...some people will never be satisfied.
I've learned to accept it, but everytime i see a situation like this repeating itself, i can only shake my head and do a "faceplam".

Thank you again for reading a BIASED fan's opinion.

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Onto your post.

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But the point is, Rua vs Jones was not a particularly fast paced fight. It was tactically hard for both of them, but it was not a body tester. Rua got hit hard early, was on the bottom, and was fighting a much bigger man, so him running out of steam is explainable without even mentioning his surgery etc.
Jones took much less damage, was always in advantageous positions on the ground, and could throw strikes well out of Rua's range, but by the start of round 2 he was noticeably tired.
Jones is very active on the ground. He's not a "lay'n pray fighter", "a blanket" or "a hugger". He alwats stays busy, doing GnP or going for submissions.
Against Shogun it was harder than against his previous opponents because Shogun has a very active guard and forces you to constantly work for positions.
Machida also took Shogun down: what did he manage to do with that?! Nothing!
What Jones did. When he wasn't doing GnP he was looking on how to improve his position. I know that isn't as tiring as defending on the bottom against a big guy, but it will get you tired.
Combine this with his attacks on the feet and you get a tired figther.
And yes: he was tired in the 2nd, but not at the beggining of the rd, more like towards the end of the rd. Greg Jackson mentioned it in an interview. But he also mentioned Jones fighting through fatigue.

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If Rua could have bounced back into the game he would have, it's only his physical toughness, ground defense, and Jon tiring that let it go on for longer. Rua would not have bounced back if Jon went in for the kill earlier, it would have been too much.
"If", "could have" and "would have" are terms that fit in the cathegory of suppositions.
Rua never bounced back. He was on survive mode for 90% of the fight.
Jones tiring + inexperience + following the game plan + respect for Shogun's skills + Shogun's toughness = the fight going the way it did.

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That is not just down to pressure, he doesn't have a fantastic gas tank right now and he is a big man.
He doesn't have a fantastic gas tank yet.
He isn't the biggest man.
Stop making this and an excuse for his opponents.
Rampage, Forrest, Thiago Silva or Bader are bigger than him.
He began camp for the Bader fight at 222 lbs.

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When Jones joined the gym prior to his UFC 100 fight with Jake O'Brien, he weighed 220 pounds with 15 percent body fat. Working with strength and conditioning coach Kelly Tekin, he has remade himself into a more efficient fighting machine. Prior to his UFC 126 camp for Ryan Bader, Jones weighed 222 pounds and had just eight percent body fat, meaning his muscle mass increased by 18 pounds in less than two years.

Tekin says for that first camp, Jones came to him in "horrible" shape.

"We thought, 'Oh God, I don't even know if he can get ready in time,'" Tekin said. "He'd never done any weight training and his endurance was not real good."

For that particular camp, Tekin concentrated mostly on conditioning, but over the last 18 months or so, the pair worked hard to add strength and power, focusing on his legs. Tekin tested Jones, looking at his hips, shoulders and other body parts to see if everything was firing properly, and then working to realign and strengthen them. While the pair focused on physical drills, they also went through visualization exercises together.
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Forrest and Rampage start from well above that: 230-240 lbs.
It's just that he uses his stregth better than other fighters.

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He's bigger than many HW's, there's a reason they don't bother cutting to 205.
No he isn't. Maybe taller. Bigger...never.
Show me a HW that weighs in at less that 240, except Cro Cop...You won't find any.

Jones is too small for HW right now. He would need to add some extra weight on his frame.
Pretty much the same situation as GSP - MW division.
I believe in 3-4 years time he will find himself in the same position Overeem found himself before moving to HW.

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I've said it before and I'm calling it now, it doesn't matter what type of fight Jones is in, who he is fighting or how much pressure is involved, he will have cardio problems past round 2 and it will be because he is in the wrong weight division.
I've said it before:
- 2 fights in 6 weeks + 5 consecutive months of camp
That's tough and it will tire you out eventually.

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I'm just not impressed by this monster cutting weight, steamrolling smaller and more skilled guys but maybe knowing that he is not as fit as he could be. I'd rather see him put on some mass, fight bigger guys and know that he can compete with them in terms of fitness, it's not like he would lose his reach advantage[the deciding factor in his LHW fights] he just wouldn't be able to rely on it so much and he'd probably be healthier.
LOL
Before Shogun: he needs to prove he is the best by beating the champion.
After beating Shogun: he doesn't belong in this division. He is too big.
And "monster cutting weight"??!?! I believe i reffered to that earlier in the post. He isn't the biggest LHW by quite a margin. Forrest and Rampage are much bigger.

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To me that is an incomplete fighter taking advantage of his youth and size
To me this is bulsh*t honestly.
Incomplete?! Of course - no fighter is complete.
Taking advantage of his size?! Of course - he is not the first to do it and he won't be the last also.
But you say it like SKILL has nothing to do with his performances.
And that's non-sense - did he land that flying knee against Shogun thanks to his youth and size?!...no skill involved right?!

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You can say Jon did the smart thing by not trying to finish Shogun earlier
I will say this.
And i will also agree that he got tired by the end of rds one and two. And conditioning is something he still has to work on. Everyone does.

But reading some of the posts here, makes me laugh really: a lot of people calling it already - "whoever wants to beat Jones just needs to jump around for 3 rounds, make sure to survive until round 4. After that, Jones will crumble by himself and the victory will be an easy one".

Even if he's gassed as hell, Jones can still take his opponent down and hig him for 5 minutes + work some "lay'n pray".
I am convicend of that.

But of course, that wouldn't be right also.

PS: i am a biased fan!
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Old 03-27-2011, 06:16 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Now thats what I call a POST Limba
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Old 03-27-2011, 06:53 PM   #29 (permalink)
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That was what I call huggery.
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Old 03-27-2011, 07:02 PM   #30 (permalink)
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That was what I call huggery.
BIASED HUGGERY! I don't f***in care!
I'm gonna tattoo nuts on may chest if a have to.

But it's much better than constantly dissing on someone and not giving *due respect*.

Wich...in this case will never happen... (respect that is)


I fuc*ing love NUTS!
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