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Old 04-18-2011, 11:03 AM   #41 (permalink)
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As one of the people who has no problem with the whole 'friends don't fight friends' mentality, for the most part, I have to say that the Silva vs. Jones fight doesn't really interest me anyway. If Anderson were regularly making trips up to 205 to fight, I might be excited by the prospect of him holding two divisional titles at once, but since he doesn't really have the intention to do too much more fighting (if any more, at all) at lightheavyweight, I'd rather he didn't fight for a title.

To respond to a few questions/comments:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyson Fury View Post
Is Andy scared??
I suppose it's possible. I wouldn't blame him, personally. I think Jones is a terrible matchup for him. Giving up seven inches of reach, without a substantial advantage in striking proficiency, along with a notable size disadvantage and a disadvantage in the clinch makes this a pretty rough fight for Anderson.

That said, I doubt it. I just don't think he's that interested in fighting at lightheavyweight anymore.


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Originally Posted by Captain Stupid View Post
How long is Silva's reach in comparison to Jones? Obviously Silva's stand up game is extraordinary, but if he doesn't have the reach to keep Jones at bay, he may have to strike from inside the pocket. Not sure how that would pan out...
Jon Jones has an 84.5 inch reach. Anderson Silva has a 77.5 inch reach. So, about 7 inches in reach.

As far as how a fight would pan out if Anderson were forced to move inside, I certainly think that's something he can do. The issue, in my view, is not really his ability to move inside, but his ability to work from the clinch with Jones.

Anderson still has a greater striking proficiency than Jones, as great as Bones is. The dangerous thing about Jones (or, more accurately, one of the more dangerous things) is his ability to transition to the positions where he knows he has a substantial advantage. We've seen it his entire career: he goes where he's comfortable, then he goes to work.


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Originally Posted by endersshadow View Post
Silva is definitely a top guy for people to fight... but Jones is THE top guy. Even Cain talked about Jones...

In any case, because Jones is so dominant (in part, because of his size/strength), I'd rather see him fight heavy weights if he's going out of 205.
You understand that Anderson is the single greatest fighter in the history of the UFC, right? He controls the records for most consecutive victories (13) and most consecutive title defenses (8). For the last five years he has a professional record of 14-0, with two fights going to decision.

Jones is a great fighter, but Anderson has been the UFC middleweight champion for longer than Jones has been fighting professionally. In fact, significantly longer.

Also, while Jones' performances have been unhesitatingly dominant, he's still at least three or four years away from having a legacy like Anderson. Anderson has defeated the best fighters in his division, basically all of them with the exception of a few guys that the UFC hasn't signed yet (Nick Diaz, Ronaldo Jacare, and MayheM Miller, though MayheM is a stretch) while Jones has beaten Shogun. He still has to defend his title (something notoriously difficult to do in the lightheavyweight division) and beat the major players in that weightclass: Rashad Evans, Lyoto Machida, Rampage Jackson and Forrest Griffin. While I think that Jones can, and will, beat all of those guys, he's got to do it before we start seriously comparing him to Anderson Silva.

As far as Anderson vs. Georges, I'll say what I've been saying the entire time people have been talking about this fight: Anderson would destroy Georges St. Pierre.

I think that for exactly the same reason I think that Jones would be a bad matchup for Silva: Silva is bigger, has more reach, a more powerful clinch game, more power in his hands and a greater ability to stay on the outside.

Georges' wrestling is great. His ground work is textbook and very solid. His striking is very solid. Everything about his game is awesome in terms of technical ability, and his athleticism is all there. The thing is, while Georges would only be giving up an inch-and-a-half of reach (76 in to Anderson's 77.5), he's still giving up four inches of height and likely 10-15 pounds.

Is St. Pierre's wrestling as good as Chael Sonnen's? No. Dan Henderson's? No. Is his jiu-jitsu as good as Thales Leites? Demian Maia? No. I honestly don't think it's as good as Travis Lutter's.

Anderson has a lot of game that GSP has never seen before. GSP really isn't going to bring anything that Anderson hasn't faced in his career already. I just don't think it's that interesting a fight. I'd rather see Anderson continue to dominate at middleweight as the UFC continues to work to bring in solid opponents for him to fight.
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Old 04-18-2011, 11:55 AM   #42 (permalink)
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If Machida doesn't take out JBJ then I see Anderson coming up due to fan pressure and really the UFC management forcing it to happen. If there's someone who can beat JBJ it would be Anderson.
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Old 04-18-2011, 12:39 PM   #43 (permalink)
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I would normally agree that when a fighter hits 36 years old then it may not be long before its time to hang up the gloves. I had my doubts about it going into the vitor belfort fight, but boy did he prove me wrong.

Anderson is a physical freak. I mean, the man is 36 years of age and he is still one of the quickest fighters in the game. His reflexes and reactions in that vitor belfort fight were incredible.

If we had seen Anderson gradually get slower over his most recent fights, then I could understand, but the Vitor Belfort fight shown that Andy isn't slowing down one bit. He looked as quick and as sharp as ever.

As people have already pointed out as well, Anderson has done a great job at avoiding taking any serious damage or sustaining any dangerous injuries throughout his career, so that no doubt helps his cause.

It sounds to me like Anderson is scared of Jones. Yea he's 36, but he isnt slowing down or "losing it", he as quick and sharp as he ever was.

I'd love to see this fight. P4P number 1 vs future prodigy of the sport.
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Old 04-18-2011, 12:41 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Mercy View Post
If Machida doesn't take out JBJ then I see Anderson coming up due to fan pressure and really the UFC management forcing it to happen. If there's someone who can beat JBJ it would be Anderson.
agree wid u but hey if that really happens anderson wud be older i think he will also lose his prime
right now fans wanted jbj vs silva
jbj doesnt deserve the fight .. i say let him defend his crown first at least 3 times b4 he gets it
anderson maybe retired already by that time. but hu knows
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Old 04-18-2011, 01:32 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
As one of the people who has no problem with the whole 'friends don't fight friends' mentality, for the most part, I have to say that the Silva vs. Jones fight doesn't really interest me anyway. If Anderson were regularly making trips up to 205 to fight, I might be excited by the prospect of him holding two divisional titles at once, but since he doesn't really have the intention to do too much more fighting (if any more, at all) at lightheavyweight, I'd rather he didn't fight for a title.

To respond to a few questions/comments:




I suppose it's possible. I wouldn't blame him, personally. I think Jones is a terrible matchup for him. Giving up seven inches of reach, without a substantial advantage in striking proficiency, along with a notable size disadvantage and a disadvantage in the clinch makes this a pretty rough fight for Anderson.

That said, I doubt it. I just don't think he's that interested in fighting at lightheavyweight anymore.




Jon Jones has an 84.5 inch reach. Anderson Silva has a 77.5 inch reach. So, about 7 inches in reach.

As far as how a fight would pan out if Anderson were forced to move inside, I certainly think that's something he can do. The issue, in my view, is not really his ability to move inside, but his ability to work from the clinch with Jones.

Anderson still has a greater striking proficiency than Jones, as great as Bones is. The dangerous thing about Jones (or, more accurately, one of the more dangerous things) is his ability to transition to the positions where he knows he has a substantial advantage. We've seen it his entire career: he goes where he's comfortable, then he goes to work.




You understand that Anderson is the single greatest fighter in the history of the UFC, right? He controls the records for most consecutive victories (13) and most consecutive title defenses (8). For the last five years he has a professional record of 14-0, with two fights going to decision.

Jones is a great fighter, but Anderson has been the UFC middleweight champion for longer than Jones has been fighting professionally. In fact, significantly longer.

Also, while Jones' performances have been unhesitatingly dominant, he's still at least three or four years away from having a legacy like Anderson. Anderson has defeated the best fighters in his division, basically all of them with the exception of a few guys that the UFC hasn't signed yet (Nick Diaz, Ronaldo Jacare, and MayheM Miller, though MayheM is a stretch) while Jones has beaten Shogun. He still has to defend his title (something notoriously difficult to do in the lightheavyweight division) and beat the major players in that weightclass: Rashad Evans, Lyoto Machida, Rampage Jackson and Forrest Griffin. While I think that Jones can, and will, beat all of those guys, he's got to do it before we start seriously comparing him to Anderson Silva.

As far as Anderson vs. Georges, I'll say what I've been saying the entire time people have been talking about this fight: Anderson would destroy Georges St. Pierre.

I think that for exactly the same reason I think that Jones would be a bad matchup for Silva: Silva is bigger, has more reach, a more powerful clinch game, more power in his hands and a greater ability to stay on the outside.

Georges' wrestling is great. His ground work is textbook and very solid. His striking is very solid. Everything about his game is awesome in terms of technical ability, and his athleticism is all there. The thing is, while Georges would only be giving up an inch-and-a-half of reach (76 in to Anderson's 77.5), he's still giving up four inches of height and likely 10-15 pounds.

Is St. Pierre's wrestling as good as Chael Sonnen's? No. Dan Henderson's? No. Is his jiu-jitsu as good as Thales Leites? Demian Maia? No. I honestly don't think it's as good as Travis Lutter's.

Anderson has a lot of game that GSP has never seen before. GSP really isn't going to bring anything that Anderson hasn't faced in his career already. I just don't think it's that interesting a fight. I'd rather see Anderson continue to dominate at middleweight as the UFC continues to work to bring in solid opponents for him to fight.
Good post overall, but I disagree on the part about GSP.

You don't need to be a Sonnen or a Henderson to take Anderson down. All you need to be is a Lutter or Okami, or even an Otsuka or Takase if you go back far enough.

This is even if we are certain that Henderson and Sonnen are better MMA wrestlers than GSP. They have better creds sure, but GSP has manhandled wrestlers with outstanding creds like Koscheck, Hughes, Sherk and Fitch. Whereas Henderson has been thoroughly outgrappled by a fairly low creds wrestler in Shields.

I'd say it's decent odds on whether or not GSP is actually as good an MMA wrestler as these guys if not better. I mean the kind of insanely fast "Rush" in shoots we've seen him do which just batter guys into the cage from 6 feet away, I've never seen Henderson do.

As for submissions, who cares if his submissions are as good as Maia or Leites, who didn't have the game to use those subs on Anderson anyway. All that matters against Anderson is his sub DEFENCE, and are you really saying Anderson is a better BJJ player than BJ Penn or Matt Serra? Just compare their grappling creds or even MMA submissions.

Lastly on the point about height, how is that relevant at all? The only reason height matters is because of reach. Anderson could be 8 foot tall, but as long as he and GSP have the same amount of muscle mass and reach, Anderson's height just gives him a weak center of gravity and makes him easier to take down. GSP could still stay within striking range and take him down, as long as the reach difference is not too high.

Apart from striking and a minor reach advantage then, the only advantage Silva has is overall muscle mass i.e. size. I think given enough time, GSP can bulk up well enough to take away a lot of that advantage. The only problem would be the harder and harder cut to WW in the meantime.
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Old 04-18-2011, 02:35 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
Good post overall, but I disagree on the part about GSP.

You don't need to be a Sonnen or a Henderson to take Anderson down. All you need to be is a Lutter or Okami, or even an Otsuka or Takase if you go back far enough.

This is even if we are certain that Henderson and Sonnen are better MMA wrestlers than GSP. They have better creds sure, but GSP has manhandled wrestlers with outstanding creds like Koscheck, Hughes, Sherk and Fitch. Whereas Henderson has been thoroughly outgrappled by a fairly low creds wrestler in Shields.

I'd say it's decent odds on whether or not GSP is actually as good an MMA wrestler as these guys if not better. I mean the kind of insanely fast "Rush" in shoots we've seen him do which just batter guys into the cage from 6 feet away, I've never seen Henderson do.
Part of that is stylistic. Henderson doesn't shoot because his game is in the clinch. But that's not really the point.

If your point is that there are decent wrestlers (not great wrestlers) who have taken Anderson down, then that's fair. Though it has been a long time since the Lutter fight, and I actually think that Anderson's takedown defense has improved a lot. I prefer to use Sonnen as a frame of reference, rather than Lutter, because I think that the grapplers that Anderson has fought over the last few years (with the exception of Sonnen) have had a progressively more difficult time getting him to the mat.


Quote:
As for submissions, who cares if his submissions are as good as Maia or Leites, who didn't have the game to use those subs on Anderson anyway. All that matters against Anderson is his sub DEFENCE, and are you really saying Anderson is a better BJJ player than BJ Penn or Matt Serra? Just compare their grappling creds or even MMA submissions.
Penn and Serra are pretty bad metrics for assessing the level of grappling that St. Pierre has displayed. Those matches really had little to do with their technical ability on the ground, it had to do with lightweights fighting a welterweight.

It's also relevant that Serra is a very different style of grappler than Anderson. So is Penn, though the differences aren't as significant. I tend to think that Serra's jiu-jitsu game doesn't transition as well to MMA as someone like Anderson does.

But if you point was, who has more credible matwork in MMA, the answer is, at this point: B.J. Penn. That said, I've been very surprised by Anderson's jiu-jitsu.


Quote:
Lastly on the point about height, how is that relevant at all? The only reason height matters is because of reach. Anderson could be 8 foot tall, but as long as he and GSP have the same amount of muscle mass and reach, Anderson's height just gives him a weak center of gravity and makes him easier to take down. GSP could still stay within striking range and take him down, as long as the reach difference is not too high.
This is just not true.

Apart from obvious and dramatic examples (like Hong Man Choi vs. a regular sized person) there is a lot involved in adjusting to the body type of one's opponent when it comes to boxing/muay thai. Trying to strike up at a guy who has a 4-6 inch height advantage can be problematic, and while at GSP's level, it shouldn't be that much of an issue, historically Anderson has done a very good job at using his posture and build to stay away from his opponents.

This was most impressive, at least for me, in the Belfort fight. Given how good Belfort is at closing the distance, Anderson was still able to largely make sure he didn't take any punishment by working off of his back foot, keeping posture instead of sinking down into the pocket and using his jab effectively. There were some lapses in this, but its still a great example of making height matter. In the case of the Belfort fight, I suppose one can argue that posture was more relevant than the actual height difference (Belfort is only 2-3 inches shorter than Anderson) in terms of making Vitor miss, but it does involve using the body to ones opponents disadvantage.


Quote:
Apart from striking and a minor reach advantage then, the only advantage Silva has is overall muscle mass i.e. size. I think given enough time, GSP can bulk up well enough to take away a lot of that advantage. The only problem would be the harder and harder cut to WW in the meantime.
I actually think that one of the things that Georges is thinking about, long term, is possibly moving up to middleweight. He's managed to get through most of his career without having too much difficulty with the weight cut, but if he decides that he wants to keep fighting into his late 30s, he may get to the point where he finds that cut more difficult.

I don't think moving up to middleweight is unreasonable for Georges, and I think that he'd fair pretty well against a lot of the guys in that division, if he continues to improve his submission defense the way that he has been (there are a lot more top tier BJJ guys in the middleweight division than in the welterweight division; it's been that way for a long time). That said, I think he does need a lot more muscle-mass before that's something we can take seriously. I just don't think he looks nearly big enough, as a middleweight.
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