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Old 10-12-2011, 05:32 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by samhain View Post
With regard to whether or not fighers are taking PED's, the only system we can truly count on, even though it can be beaten, is the drug test. Most fighters are passing the drug test, some are not. At the end of the day, when it comes to Sonnen and Silva, there seems to be a very simple point that Sonnen defenders seem to discount.

1) On August 17, 2010, Anderson Silva's testosterone levels were within the normal range.
2) On August 17, 2010, Chael Sonnen's testosterone levels were 4 times above the normal limit. Chael Sonnen's testosterone levels were 4 times above the normal limit because he put a substance into his body. Chael Sonnen put this substance into his body because he prescribed Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT) by a physician due to having testosterone levels below the normal range. TRT allows fighters with low testosterone levels to bring it up to the NORMAL range. Once again, Chael's levels were four times over the normal range.
3) On August 17, 2010, Anderson Silva with his normal testosterone levels fought in a cage with Chael Sonnen, who had testosterone levels 4 times above the normal range.
4) Chael Sonnen clearly had an unfair advantage on August 17, 2010.
Fool, you are stating the original facts before the hearing, he didn't get 1 year suspension(even though he really did) for banned substances he got it from discretion I thought this has already been talked about whether it was overdose or not doesn't matter because they didn't charge him with it being illegal hence the cut in half sentence.
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Old 10-12-2011, 05:59 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by UFC_OWNS View Post
Fool, you are stating the original facts before the hearing, he didn't get 1 year suspension(even though he really did) for banned substances he got it from discretion I thought this has already been talked about whether it was overdose or not doesn't matter because they didn't charge him with it being illegal hence the cut in half sentence.
Right, I'm the fool.

Not once do I mention anything to do with a suspension for banned substances....and I fail to see how the hearing changes the fact that Silva's testosterone levels were normal and Sonnen's were four times above the limit.
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Old 10-12-2011, 06:58 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Thales View Post
You think steroid use is on a similar level of cheating as a firearm or weapon? Wow. Brilliant.

There is zero proof that anything but extreme steroid use will "destroy your body and mind". In fact, Doctors use steroids to treat medical conditions all the time. That's what we're talking about, moderate usage as recommended by a doctor. Also, please don't confuse testosterone replacement therapy with the illegal oral consumption or intramuscular injection of anabolic steroids. Maybe you should educate yourself on steroids instead of parroting the little bit of misinformation you know.

I find it amusing that Chael's detractors seem to contradict themselves. On one hand they hate on Chael because he used TRT as an unfair advantage in his fight and dominated Anderson Silva, on the other hand he didn't dominate Silva and he's just a bum. Which is it? Either he used "'roids" and dominated the champ for 4.5 rounds or not. If the A. Silva nut-huggers refuse to admit he put a beating on Silva then I don't see why him using "'roids" is an issue.

I personally think the guy's amusing and sells a good fight. Champion potential? Doubt it, he's not that skilled. He is funny that's for sure.
When did I say weapons and steroids are on the same level? Stop putting words in my mouth. I implied they are the same concept, both endanger the opponent, but obviously one to a greater degree than the other. The point is to use a magnified example to explain the concept. But the concept still holds, it's cheating, endangering the opponent, and upsetting the level playing field.

There is tons of medical proof that ANY non medical steroid use will cause massive hormonal disbalance, destroy the body's ability to naturally make the hormones, cause depressions, acne, heart problems, sexual problems, liver disease and aggressive behavior.

The medical use is only for people who are very deficient in natural hormones because of extreme medical conditions like severe genetic defects, muscular atrophy, certain cancers etc. You cannot compare conditions like this to normal athletes and healthy human beings who already have natural levels of hormone and muscles, the disbalance in their cases will always cause side effects. Even then, and here is the important part NO sane doctor recommends them for more than 2-4 weeks tops, except for life threatening conditions. Their purpose is to give the body some EMERGENCY aid, not as an actual supplement. You make them sound like vitamin pills.

http://www.medicinenet.com/anabolic_...oral/page2.htm

http://allergies.about.com/od/medica...micsteroid.htm

You are the one who needs to educate yourself. And not from shady forums that want to sell you steroids for $100 a pop, but from legitimate medical sites and journals like I posted above.
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Old 10-12-2011, 07:58 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
When did I say weapons and steroids are on the same level? Stop putting words in my mouth. I implied they are the same concept, both endanger the opponent, but obviously one to a greater degree than the other. The point is to use a magnified example to explain the concept. But the concept still holds, it's cheating, endangering the opponent, and upsetting the level playing field.
When did I say you said they are on the same level? Please read "similar", as in you comparing them, which is what you did. By your own admission above you "implied they are the same concept". Who is putting words in your mouth?

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Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
There is tons of medical proof that ANY non medical steroid use will cause massive hormonal disbalance, destroy the body's ability to naturally make the hormones, cause depressions, acne, heart problems, sexual problems, liver disease and aggressive behavior.
No, no there isn't.
1) There is some evidence that excessive steroid use will cause a hormonal imbalance if not properly followed with a post-cycle regiment.
2) Steroids do not destroy your ability to make hormones, your body simply decreases its' natural production of androgenic hormones because it is receiving it from a synthetic source. Except in extreme cases the testes begin synthesizing androgenic hormones again after a time.
3) Depression and aggression are linked to all testosterone, not just anabolic steroids. Then again, low testosterone levels are also linked to depression and a "low sex drive". Depression is also common during puberty due to an increase in natural testosterone synthesis.
4)Oral anabolic steroids cause liver damage in excessive amounts, but so does any oral medication- including acetaminophen. There has never been a study showing conclusively that steroids cause heart damage.

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Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
The medical use is only for people who are very deficient in natural hormones because of extreme medical conditions like severe genetic defects, muscular atrophy, certain cancers etc.
Wrong. Have you heard of "Low-T"? There has been a resurgence in testosterone treatment as a method of treating a myriad of symptoms; fatigue, decreased libido, depression, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
You cannot compare conditions like this to normal athletes and healthy human beings who already have natural levels of hormone and muscles, the disbalance in their cases will always cause side effects. Even then, and here is the important part NO sane doctor recommends them for more than 2-4 weeks tops, except for life threatening conditions. Their purpose is to give the body some EMERGENCY aid, not as an actual supplement. You make them sound like vitamin pills.
1) Wrong again. Your elite athletes, like Chael Sonnen, have very different hormone levels as a result of their training and conditioning as compared with "healthy human beings".
2) Wrong about the doctors too. A doctor will prescribe cycles of transdermal or intramuscular steroids in cycles dependent upon desired hormone levels. There is a specific level that is sought and TRT is utilized in conjunction with regular androgenic testing to determine efficacy. A doctor does not simply say "Okay, I'm giving you this testosterone cream for 4 weeks. If it doesn't work, oh well."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
Nice link discussing oral steroids. Please note that it does not address other forms of TRT, such as IM or transdermal use, or even state that there is a definitive correlation between oral anabolic steroids and liver disease.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
You do realize this link is referring to corticosteroids, not anabolic steroids, right? You also realize that there is a difference between something like prednisone and stanozolol, right? The first being a corticosteroid commonly prescribed to treat inflammation, the other being a synthetic androgen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
You are the one who needs to educate yourself. And not from shady forums that want to sell you steroids for $100 a pop, but from legitimate medical sites and journals like I posted above.
I need to educate myself? You're right. The time spent studying endocrinology and shadowing an endocrinology internist were a waste. Those hours spent in Anatomy/Physiology lab and lecture cramming the endocrine system and its' homeostatic imbalances into my brain were a waste. I should have just used "about.com" and Google to get an education.
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Old 10-13-2011, 04:11 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Thales View Post
When did I say you said they are on the same level? Please read "similar", as in you comparing them, which is what you did. By your own admission above you "implied they are the same concept". Who is putting words in your mouth?


No, no there isn't.
1) There is some evidence that excessive steroid use will cause a hormonal imbalance if not properly followed with a post-cycle regiment.
2) Steroids do not destroy your ability to make hormones, your body simply decreases its' natural production of androgenic hormones because it is receiving it from a synthetic source. Except in extreme cases the testes begin synthesizing androgenic hormones again after a time.
3) Depression and aggression are linked to all testosterone, not just anabolic steroids. Then again, low testosterone levels are also linked to depression and a "low sex drive". Depression is also common during puberty due to an increase in natural testosterone synthesis.
4)Oral anabolic steroids cause liver damage in excessive amounts, but so does any oral medication- including acetaminophen. There has never been a study showing conclusively that steroids cause heart damage.



Wrong. Have you heard of "Low-T"? There has been a resurgence in testosterone treatment as a method of treating a myriad of symptoms; fatigue, decreased libido, depression, etc.


1) Wrong again. Your elite athletes, like Chael Sonnen, have very different hormone levels as a result of their training and conditioning as compared with "healthy human beings".
2) Wrong about the doctors too. A doctor will prescribe cycles of transdermal or intramuscular steroids in cycles dependent upon desired hormone levels. There is a specific level that is sought and TRT is utilized in conjunction with regular androgenic testing to determine efficacy. A doctor does not simply say "Okay, I'm giving you this testosterone cream for 4 weeks. If it doesn't work, oh well."


Nice link discussing oral steroids. Please note that it does not address other forms of TRT, such as IM or transdermal use, or even state that there is a definitive correlation between oral anabolic steroids and liver disease.


You do realize this link is referring to corticosteroids, not anabolic steroids, right? You also realize that there is a difference between something like prednisone and stanozolol, right? The first being a corticosteroid commonly prescribed to treat inflammation, the other being a synthetic androgen.



I need to educate myself? You're right. The time spent studying endocrinology and shadowing an endocrinology internist were a waste. Those hours spent in Anatomy/Physiology lab and lecture cramming the endocrine system and its' homeostatic imbalances into my brain were a waste. I should have just used "about.com" and Google to get an education.
Excellent informative post +rep
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Old 10-13-2011, 04:36 AM   #66 (permalink)
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@Thales:
I understand what you are saying. And you are greatly aducated in this area. (+rep)I also think that proper use of these so called "drugs" can be benefitial to your body if they are used wisely and under proper observation by some experts.

But that doesnt change the fact that these substances are banned from almost every sport.

I think that abusing steroids is bad not because steroids are bad or harmful or anything. I think its bad because you are playing by different rules when you are on.

So I prefer same conditions for everyone. So either no one on PEDs or everyone who is willing to use them on PEDs.

Nothing in between.


BTW the issue about testosterone levels. For god sake almost every pro athlete should have lower T levels in result of hard constant training. I would bet that almost every fighter could use some TRT to get on normal T levels.

On the topic: Maia and Sonnen should train together. Beneficitial for both.

On Sonnen: He is very strange person that entertains me. I think that he is a liar and cheater but he is at least funny and sometimes respectful to the other fighters and very respectful to his bosses, to the fans, to this sport.

Like I said. Strange person.
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Old 10-13-2011, 05:17 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thales View Post
When did I say you said they are on the same level? Please read "similar", as in you comparing them, which is what you did. By your own admission above you "implied they are the same concept". Who is putting words in your mouth?


No, no there isn't.
1) There is some evidence that excessive steroid use will cause a hormonal imbalance if not properly followed with a post-cycle regiment.
2) Steroids do not destroy your ability to make hormones, your body simply decreases its' natural production of androgenic hormones because it is receiving it from a synthetic source. Except in extreme cases the testes begin synthesizing androgenic hormones again after a time.
3) Depression and aggression are linked to all testosterone, not just anabolic steroids. Then again, low testosterone levels are also linked to depression and a "low sex drive". Depression is also common during puberty due to an increase in natural testosterone synthesis.
4)Oral anabolic steroids cause liver damage in excessive amounts, but so does any oral medication- including acetaminophen. There has never been a study showing conclusively that steroids cause heart damage.



Wrong. Have you heard of "Low-T"? There has been a resurgence in testosterone treatment as a method of treating a myriad of symptoms; fatigue, decreased libido, depression, etc.


1) Wrong again. Your elite athletes, like Chael Sonnen, have very different hormone levels as a result of their training and conditioning as compared with "healthy human beings". 2) Wrong about the doctors too. A doctor will prescribe cycles of transdermal or intramuscular steroids in cycles dependent upon desired hormone levels. There is a specific level that is sought and TRT is utilized in conjunction with regular androgenic testing to determine efficacy. A doctor does not simply say "Okay, I'm giving you this testosterone cream for 4 weeks. If it doesn't work, oh well."


Nice link discussing oral steroids. Please note that it does not address other forms of TRT, such as IM or transdermal use, or even state that there is a definitive correlation between oral anabolic steroids and liver disease.


You do realize this link is referring to corticosteroids, not anabolic steroids, right? You also realize that there is a difference between something like prednisone and stanozolol, right? The first being a corticosteroid commonly prescribed to treat inflammation, the other being a synthetic androgen.



I need to educate myself? You're right. The time spent studying endocrinology and shadowing an endocrinology internist were a waste. Those hours spent in Anatomy/Physiology lab and lecture cramming the endocrine system and its' homeostatic imbalances into my brain were a waste. I should have just used "about.com" and Google to get an education.
Exacly, but that doesn't make it fair that a few fighters use TRT to it fix this and some don't. TRT is all good for people who have low levels and want to fix it, but in a sport and at the most elite level this is just BS.
Either you compete with the testo you have or you don't compete. If Chael doesn't have the balls(lol) to fight without TRT then he shouldn't fight, and that goes for all athletes imo.

Look at Sonnen and friends they all have hypogonadism? thats not a little wierd? Hendo, Randy and now Chael all have too little of some hormone and they all happen to be friends. And Randy fought until the age of 48, Hendo is over 40 and Sonnen started getting alot better at the age of 33 when most other athletes start to fade.
If thats not cheating then I don't know what is.

Never mind that it's "legal" because a doctor perscribed it to him, imo thats just as bad as roiding. The only difference is that now you have a legal way of cheating and to me thats just as bad as taking Nandrolone, Stanzolol or whatever roids he would put in himself.

I know there are others but we can only look at the ones that get caught so in these cases Sonnen, Marquardt etc. and IMO Hendo even though he keeps his levels and paperwork in order, it's still cheating to me.

One other reason this is crap is because there is no way of checking what levels these guys are on when not competing, Sonnen could have way too high amounts of testo injected at trainingtime and we wouldn't know as long as he cykles it in the right way.

So if most of these fighters have low testo levels from overtraining, is it fair that some use TRT and some don't to fix this?
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Old 10-13-2011, 04:18 PM   #68 (permalink)
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I think PEDs are more prevalent than most people are aware of in the UFC, and pretty much all sports that require strength/conditioning. It's time that we as a society take our collective heads out of the sand and accept it. We expect more and more from our athletes, is it unreasonable that they are using whatever means they can to help them raise the bar? We either need to reassess our views of realistic athleticism or legalize steroid use for those athletes who want to use them. We have fighters who use artificial methods of increasing erythrocyte (RBC) levels to achieve the benefits of altitude training, and some who don't. We often hear about the health issues associated with steroids, but what about secondary polycythemia from blood doping?

Also, I can go to my local Vitamin Shoppe and buy "all natural" supplements that increase androgenic synthesis for $40 a bottle, and there are some that legitimately work. This sort of supplementation is completely legal.

To summarize, we need to stop trying to fool ourselves into thinking steroid use will evaporate if we keep putting the screws on the people we catch.
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Old 10-13-2011, 05:34 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thales View Post
I think PEDs are more prevalent than most people are aware of in the UFC, and pretty much all sports that require strength/conditioning. It's time that we as a society take our collective heads out of the sand and accept it. We expect more and more from our athletes, is it unreasonable that they are using whatever means they can to help them raise the bar? We either need to reassess our views of realistic athleticism or legalize steroid use for those athletes who want to use them. We have fighters who use artificial methods of increasing erythrocyte (RBC) levels to achieve the benefits of altitude training, and some who don't. We often hear about the health issues associated with steroids, but what about secondary polycythemia from blood doping?

Also, I can go to my local Vitamin Shoppe and buy "all natural" supplements that increase androgenic synthesis for $40 a bottle, and there are some that legitimately work. This sort of supplementation is completely legal.

To summarize, we need to stop trying to fool ourselves into thinking steroid use will evaporate if we keep putting the screws on the people we catch.
I agree in some sence, can't really make up my mind if I would like it to be legal or not. My problem is the gray zone that we are in now where alot of athletes use some sort of chemical enhancement and some don't. Either it should be 100% illegal or 100% legal, can't have some using TRT as an excuse and then some not using anything.

In the end I think I would vote no on steroids if there was ever a chance to vote. I think alot of athletes like Anderson Silva and Penn who are really really talented and don't even want to use steroids would be treated unfairly if they where legal. I mean there are health-issues with using, even tho people can't agree on what they are and at what doses. So the fighters who would chose to not use even if it was legal would be at an unfair disadvantage.

The benefit of allowing them would ofcourse be that we would see an overall higher level of physical achievment in our favourite sports & no single athletes would be made scapegoats.
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