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Everyone that supports obamacare and medicare for all. Can't name a single thing either reform does to improve healthcare or make it more affordable. You know what that means?

It means: pubic opinion on healthcare doesn't amount to more than the blind leading the blind. You could say the same about nearly every topic that is relevent and important in this day and age. Most if not all accounts on social media with millions of followers constantly get things wrong in areas where they're not competent at all.

There's no need to bother watching horror movies anymore. None of them are anywhere near as frightening as real life. There aren't many plots as disturbing as the thought of billions of uneducated and uninformed idiots making dumb decisions that are guaranteed to have a negative impact on your life and standard of living. lol
 

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Everyone that supports obamacare and medicare for all. Can't name a single thing either reform does to improve healthcare or make it more affordable.
If medicare for all got passed in the form that Bernie/others want it to be, then naming a single thing that makes it more affordable is quite easy - it would be free for everybody. There's quite literally no better way to explain how it could be more affordable. Free is about as affordable as something gets. Now, technically it would be paid through taxes but again, if it's done exactly how Bernie says it would be by applying a speculation tax on stocks/bonds, if that is actually 100% true and factual and that's where he gets 100% of the money, then your average taxpayer won't feel an increase.

As for quality of healthcare, no idea. Never had to deal with healthcare out of the US. Might be good, might be bad, might be about the same. We won't know until it's tried.
 

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The Title Guy
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The US is the only place where healthcare is efficient even with Obamacare in place. Even people without money can get treatments if enough people pitch in or if the hospital is willing to pitch in because they are paid for already. Healthcare outside of the US is a mess because of government intervention and if Medicare for all got passed it'd get worse.
 

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The US is the only place where healthcare is efficient even with Obamacare in place. Even people without money can get treatments if enough people pitch in or if the hospital is willing to pitch in because they are paid for already. Healthcare outside of the US is a mess because of government intervention and if Medicare for all got passed it'd get worse.
There are several countries in the world that have a higher rated health care system than the US. In fact in just about any independent study you can find, the US is not ranked no.1 in any of them, The World Health Organisation has US health care ranked at 37th. I'm pretty sure most of the countries above them are either Universal or heavily state subsidised.

You find you get a different health care system when everyone is covered. Population is generally healthier because nobody puts off going to a doctor. Prevention rather than cure is heavily pushed (eat healthy, exercise, avoid hospitals if you have the flu or a cold or other minor ailment - treat at home instead, etc). Little to no paperwork involved. No over prescription of treatments. Prescriptions are either free or relatively cheap (most you'll pay for any drug in the UK is £9). Doctors have no financial incentives to push a more expensive drug over a cheaper one, despite them both containing the same ingredients.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't argue that the US has the best hospitals, equipment and the some of the best doctors. But these things tend to be reserved for those who can afford them.

Americans splash out big money on insurance which doesn't really provide full coverage and has all kinds of strings attached. Then Americans also pay more in tax towards health care than any other nation on the planet (GDP). I'd stay the US is a long way, and I mean a looooooonnnngggg way from being "The only place where healthcare is efficient".
 

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The Title Guy
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Let me rephrase that as you yourself pointed out. No the US is far from efficient but at the same time you pointed out that they have the best hospitals and equipment. How many of those universal healthcare systems have the same or better hospitals or medical equipment? Let's also not forget that as pointed out taxes would go sky high as is the case in those other countries that have universal healthcare systems. It's not free, it's paid for by the tax payers.
 

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Let me rephrase that as you yourself pointed out. No the US is far from efficient but at the same time you pointed out that they have the best hospitals and equipment. How many of those universal healthcare systems have the same or better hospitals or medical equipment? Let's also not forget that as pointed out taxes would go sky high as is the case in those other countries that have universal healthcare systems. It's not free, it's paid for by the tax payers.
Everybody has problems. The US healthcare system is loaded, LOADED with issues. You know who else has issues? Canada's healthcare system, UK's healthcare system, and every single other healthcare system. Saying that people have problems is just obvious, everyone has problems, all systems have problems, nothing is perfect or exactly how it theoretically should be. The question is, which problems are worse than others, which issues should be up front in discussion, and what are the pros/cons of each system.

As for taxes, have you actually done research on how Bernie plans to pay for the healthcare? If he does it how he says he will do it, your average tax payer won't see an increase.
 

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The Title Guy
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Sure the average tax payer won't see an increase because the average taxpayer doesn't make a whole lot but the people who put money into the economy will and that means less money to spread into the economy and more money going into government system. Not to mention that we are creating MORE of a government system that is inefficient.
 

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Sure the average tax payer won't see an increase because the average taxpayer doesn't make a whole lot but the people who put money into the economy will and that means less money to spread into the economy and more money going into government system. Not to mention that we are creating MORE of a government system that is inefficient.
Give detailed information about exactly which people will be effected by Bernie's method of implementing free health care.

You keep talking about generalized things, wide spread words that don't have any real meaning. Creating more of a government system that is inefficient? What does this mean? How does this work? What exactly are the details you are talking about. How does Bernie's plan regarding how he will pay for health care effect the government system and what is the government system you are talking about that it will effect?

Do you know how Bernie will pay for health care? He has very specific plans on how to pay for healthcare, how to pay for tuition, how to pay for XYZ. Do you know what his plan is, who it effects and how it effects them?
 

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The Title Guy
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Bernie himself has said that he would increase taxes on the middle class in the debates along with just about every other Democratic primary candidate. Also one solid number I can give you is the estimates of Medicare for All would be $350 billion per year. And I did go to Bernie's site and couldn't find the math for how he will pay for such a massive overhaul of the American healthcare system. Also doesn't a single payer system kill all the healthcare companies?
 

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If medicare for all got passed in the form that Bernie/others want it to be, then naming a single thing that makes it more affordable is quite easy - it would be free for everybody. There's quite literally no better way to explain how it could be more affordable. Free is about as affordable as something gets. Now, technically it would be paid through taxes but again, if it's done exactly how Bernie says it would be by applying a speculation tax on stocks/bonds, if that is actually 100% true and factual and that's where he gets 100% of the money, then your average taxpayer won't feel an increase.

As for quality of healthcare, no idea. Never had to deal with healthcare out of the US. Might be good, might be bad, might be about the same. We won't know until it's tried.

There's no reason to support medicare for all. There's not a single thing that reform does to improve healthcare or make it more affordable to the general public.

The problem has always revolved around big pharma profits, medical equipment manufacturer profits with hospital and healthcare industry price mark ups. Coupled with testing standards for doctors being too astronomical resulting in severely lopsided doctor to patient ratios. Along with unnecessary taxes and regulation in the healthcare industry boosting prices. Poor diet and lifestyle choices also contributes with a significant percentage of the population being obese and or unhealthy. Et al.

Medicare for all targets the health insurance industry. Health insurance has always been a scapegoat. Its what the media blames to prevent the public from understanding what is truly broken with healthcare. Health insurance isn't the problem and medicare for all targeting it, won't do anything to bring prices down or improve standards. The only net effect it has are tax hikes which will be passed on to poor to middle class earners.

Obama said "you can keep your health insurance if you like it" after obamcare is passed. What happened? Now we have medicare for all democrats saying the same thing about medicare for all. Claiming people can "keep their current insurance" if they like it. The CBO claimed obamcare would make healthcare $500 billion dollars cheaper. Now we have democrats claiming that medicare for all will make healthcare "500 billion dollars cheaper".

The entire medicare for all campaign is a direct insult to the intelligence of anyone who bothers to keep track of these things.

On top of that medicare itself is a horrible system. Its not the foundation anyone familiar with it would want for a nation wide healthcare system.

Others might not know the outcome. I can guarantee you 100% it'll fail miserably if its ever passed.
 

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The US is the only place where healthcare is efficient even with Obamacare in place. Even people without money can get treatments if enough people pitch in or if the hospital is willing to pitch in because they are paid for already. Healthcare outside of the US is a mess because of government intervention and if Medicare for all got passed it'd get worse.

You're 100% right. It will get worse if medicare for all is passed.

I don't understand why anyone continues to have faith in politicians like Bernie Sanders who have been in office for 20+ years and never done a thing for anyone but themselves.

But whatever man. Have to respect that free will & choice.
 

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You're right, a system like most other developed countries have is unrealistic because of the profiteering of everyone involved in the chain from the supply of medicine to the insurance companies. Drug companies marking up 100's of percent on the cost of manufacture, hospitals and doctors charging eye watering fees for the simplest of procedures. Thats before we even talk about insurance costs and coverage and the fact 100s of 1000's of Americans go bankrupt every year because they fell ill. The whole system is one big gravy train, I honestly can't even imagine how you'd stop that thing without making some laws the contradict the American way of life. The American health system is the poster boy for anyone who wants to push a more socialist society, it is the bad side of Capitalism.

4 hours ago my 1 1/2 year old son fell and bumped his head, leaving a half inch wide gap. This happened while I was at work. I got home from work at 5.45. Half an hour later my wife returned with my son. She took him to the hospital, waiting time and treatment took about an 90 minutes, that was to see the triage, and then doctor. The cost of this? Nothing. The future cost of this? Nothing. The amount of paper we will have to complete? None. In, seen to, out, done. Well, I say free, its paid for via taxes. I wonder how much would would this have cost in the US, without insurance or medicare? I'm not saying this just as an hypothetical example, this genuinely did just happen today.

Imagine if in the UK the fire service was privatised. Imagine you had a house fire, the firemen put it out. A few days later you get a bill where you are charged £2,000 for the call out, £5,000 for the water, £3000 for the use of the equipment, 10,000 for each room extinguished, 5,000 for the investigation into the cause of the fire, 3,000 to board the property up, 2,000 for advice on where to place future smoke alarms and general fire safety, £2,000 admin costs because the fire service hires and external firm to take care of the administration. Then imagine your still getting bills for the fire years later for stuff you can't remember. Imagine the costs were so great that you absolutely had to take out separate insurance incase of a fire, and that insurance only covered certain things and you'd still have to pay 25% of the costs anyway. Now imagine the UK fire service already receives more in taxes than any other nation on the planet. Americans would look over the the UK and think 'thats *** crazy'. Well thats how most people see the US healthcare system.

Personally I favour a mixed economy. Government takes care of the infrastructure, social and healthcare issues. Everything else is private. This is kind of the same system that exists everywhere already. The real difference between the US and the rest of the developed countries is healthcare. The people in power love to throw around terms like commie at the very suggestion of the US health care being rained in. The reality is that they are protecting their own way of life. The US Health Care Industry is so powerful that I doubt any government could stop it even if they wanted to.

The relationship between citizens and governments. Is like the relationship between a married couple.

Where some men will be nice to women when they're independent and single. Then the second they get married and the woman begins to depend on them and rely on them for things. They become an asshole, turn abusive and aren't nice anymore.

Its like that with the government. When you rely on them and depend on them for things. They become abusive and treat you like property. Think about how many lies governments tell people, how many lives they've ruined. For those who get taken in by the pro government act its literally an abusive relationship.

The answer to issues with healthcare may always have been for people to become more independent and rely on governments and private sectors less for survival. That actually forces politicians to do what they're supposed to do, for a change.

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Let me rephrase that as you yourself pointed out. No the US is far from efficient but at the same time you pointed out that they have the best hospitals and equipment. How many of those universal healthcare systems have the same or better hospitals or medical equipment? Let's also not forget that as pointed out taxes would go sky high as is the case in those other countries that have universal healthcare systems. It's not free, it's paid for by the tax payers.
I did say that, but thats not to say the hospitals, equipment and doctors in the UK or elsewhere are inadequate. Doctors still have to undergo 4-5 years at Uni then years serving in an actual hospital before they are qualified. Besides, the very best of American health care is reserved for those who can afford it. So unless you are wealthy the only thing you should be concerned about is the quality of your own health care, I bet that is no different to any other developed country.

The relationship between citizens and governments. Is like the relationship between a married couple.

Where some men will be nice to women when they're independent and single. Then the second they get married and the woman begins to depend on them and rely on them for things. They become an asshole, turn abusive and aren't nice anymore.

Its like that with the government. When you rely on them and depend on them for things. They become abusive and treat you like property. Think about how many lies governments tell people, how many lives they've ruined. For those who get taken in by the pro government act its literally an abusive relationship.

The answer to issues with healthcare may always have been for people to become more independent and rely on governments and private sectors less for survival. That actually forces politicians to do what they're supposed to do, for a change.
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A weird analogy but if the relationship between government and citizen is that of an abusive husband, then the relationship between healthcare and patient is that of a Pimp and his Hoe - if you get fúcked, your handing over all your money.

One of the things I've heard about American healthcare is that your insurance only covers for treatment in state, it doesnt allow you to get treatment in another state. If this is true, it's utterly absurd. You could liken it to only being allowed to shop at your local Walmart, who then in turn put their prices up 1000% because you have no other choice, but to shop there.

At the end of the day, you either don't mind being ripped off by the American Healthcare industry or you do. If you do then vote for someone who will fix it, if you don't then carry on as normal. Try looking up Americans who have had experience with other countries universal systems, you'll see that nearly every person has something positive to say.

Lets be clear, the only people who think America has a good health system is Americans. Literally everyone else lives in fear that those arsehole American lobbyists are trying to export their bullshit to other countries.
 

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Bernie himself has said that he would increase taxes on the middle class in the debates along with just about every other Democratic primary candidate. Also one solid number I can give you is the estimates of Medicare for All would be $350 billion per year. And I did go to Bernie's site and couldn't find the math for how he will pay for such a massive overhaul of the American healthcare system. Also doesn't a single payer system kill all the healthcare companies?
Tax on Extreme Wealth - that's how he will pay for all current medial debt in America.
How Does Bernie Pay for His Major Plans? - scroll down to the "medicare for all" section at the bottom, it fully explains how that will be paid for.

Those two links will give you all the information you need to know about how he plans to pay for the healthcare overhaul.

There's no reason to support medicare for all. There's not a single thing that reform does to improve healthcare or make it more affordable to the general public.

The problem has always revolved around big pharma profits, medical equipment manufacturer profits with hospital and healthcare industry price mark ups. Coupled with testing standards for doctors being too astronomical resulting in severely lopsided doctor to patient ratios. Along with unnecessary taxes and regulation in the healthcare industry boosting prices. Poor diet and lifestyle choices also contributes with a significant percentage of the population being obese and or unhealthy. Et al.

Medicare for all targets the health insurance industry. Health insurance has always been a scapegoat. Its what the media blames to prevent the public from understanding what is truly broken with healthcare. Health insurance isn't the problem and medicare for all targeting it, won't do anything to bring prices down or improve standards. The only net effect it has are tax hikes which will be passed on to poor to middle class earners.

Obama said "you can keep your health insurance if you like it" after obamcare is passed. What happened? Now we have medicare for all democrats saying the same thing about medicare for all. Claiming people can "keep their current insurance" if they like it. The CBO claimed obamcare would make healthcare $500 billion dollars cheaper. Now we have democrats claiming that medicare for all will make healthcare "500 billion dollars cheaper".

The entire medicare for all campaign is a direct insult to the intelligence of anyone who bothers to keep track of these things.

On top of that medicare itself is a horrible system. Its not the foundation anyone familiar with it would want for a nation wide healthcare system.

Others might not know the outcome. I can guarantee you 100% it'll fail miserably if its ever passed.
Bernie has directly stated he hates big pharma, and that one of the main issues in America is that the government does not negotiate prices with them like they do in Canada and in other places. According to him, you can get insulin in Canada for 1/10th the price you can get it in the US, specifically because the Canadian government negotiates prices and says "no, you may not sell insulin at such a nonsensical price". So he is after them as well.

As for people who are familiar with the medicare system, the two main people I know that had/have it was my dad and currently my mom. My dad for the final 2 years of his life got put on it and all of his cancer/medical treatment was completely free, and my mom currently has advanced stage COPD and has been on medicare for some years now. She currently gets all medicine and hardware she needs for free, this includes oxygen tanks, an oxygen machine that runs 24/7, a trilogy machine to sleep with at night, all of the tubes and devices included with all of that stuff to be changed regularly, and all doctor appointments/visits are completely free. She pays a grand total of $6 a month on medical treatment out of her own pocket, so I guess it's not technically "free" for her, there is one specific pill she takes that she lays down $6 for. Any surgeries, appointments, tests, etc are all free as well. She spent 2 weeks in the ER and then 1 week in the ICU about 1.5 years ago from pneumonia, the bill was $38,000 or so. She didn't have to pay a penny of it.

So, if that is the expected care with medicare for all then that's a pretty good deal for a lot of people i'd imagine.
 

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As for people who are familiar with the medicare system, the two main people I know that had/have it was my dad and currently my mom. My dad for the final 2 years of his life got put on it and all of his cancer/medical treatment was completely free, and my mom currently has advanced stage COPD and has been on medicare for some years now. She currently gets all medicine and hardware she needs for free, this includes oxygen tanks, an oxygen machine that runs 24/7, a trilogy machine to sleep with at nice, all of the tubes and devices included with all of that stuff to be changed regularly, and all doctor appointments/visits are completely free. She pays a grand total of $6 a month on medical treatment out of her own pocket, so I guess it's not technically "free" for her, there is one specific pill she takes that she lays down $6 for. Any surgeries, appointments, tests, etc are all free as well. She spent 2 weeks in the ER and then 1 week in the ICU about 1.5 years ago from pneumonia, the bill was $38,000 or so. She didn't have to pay a penny of it.

So, if that is the expected care with medicare for all then that's a pretty good deal for a lot of people i'd imagine.
Thats how it is for every developed country in the world mate. Americans shouldn't have to put up with it. The hardest thing is to rein in big pharma, cut out the middle men and red tape. You people already pay enough in taxes to support a world class universal healthcare system. Give the America people a system on par with the other systems and the country will be better off for it, both financially and health wise. Once its in place you have a second tier system, again like every other country, where you can continue to pay for insurance but get a much, better service for it.

However, any attempt to do this will be met with lies, disinformation, scaremongering, legal threats, bribery (lobbying) and name calling from the parties involved. They care about profit, more so than ethics, and big Pharma is a prime example.

Before the NHS was founded 1948 its idea was ridiculed, the national press pushed the same kind of agenda the America press and politicians push now. Theres a paper headline that was doing the rounds not so long ago from 1948 but for the life of me I can't find it, but it pretty much compared the UK to communist Russia if such a system was implemented. The introduction of the NHS was very divisive at the time. Fast forward to now and people would literally vote out any party that proposed getting rid of the NHS. I guarantee that if American universal health care was introduced today, people would riot in a decades time if a government tried to get rid of it.

Sorry to hear about your mam, I hope she's doing ok... circumstances considered.
 

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The Title Guy
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Here is the inherent problem with taxing the super rich as SO MANY people from Fox, Daily Wire, Blaze TV and so many other news sources point out is that at some point in taxing the super rich you run out of money. At some point as Bernie himself said, they would tax the middle class. Also with universal healthcare systems the wait times are horrible.
 

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Here is the inherent problem with taxing the super rich as SO MANY people from Fox, Daily Wire, Blaze TV and so many other news sources point out is that at some point in taxing the super rich you run out of money. At some point as Bernie himself said, they would tax the middle class. Also with universal healthcare systems the wait times are horrible.

If you look into it, America actually does not lead in having the fastest wait times. Quite a few countries are ahead of America in wait times, and a couple have higher quality health care, and most have comparable quality health care. At the very least, other countries are comparable. And free.

As for taxing the rich, we will see. You have no evidence that the money will "run out", and in fact the amount of millionaires and billionaires in America is greatly increasing and has been for at least a decade or more. If anything, there are more rich people now than there ever has been in the history of the country and this rate keeps increasing. Plus also note, $350 billion of the money needed will not come from taxing rich, but instead come from the speculation tax on stocks and bonds.
 

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The Title Guy
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So your solution of funding Medicare for all is to tax people because there's more billionaires and millionaires in the US then ever and that because of that they will fund Medicare for all. As Trix mentioned earlier Medicare right now is not a good system and you want to make it our nationalize healthcare system. Also as Trix mentioned, Obamacare was supposed to make things cheaper and instead healthcare plans only went up. Do you honestly think people will be able to keep their old plans considering that Medicare for all is supposed to basically kill privatized healthcare. Also that is just one system you are talking about, are all those millionaires and billionaires supposed to also pay for free college which is all money they could be putting into something else?
 

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So your solution of funding Medicare for all is to tax people because there's more billionaires and millionaires in the US then ever and that because of that they will fund Medicare for all. As Trix mentioned earlier Medicare right now is not a good system and you want to make it our nationalize healthcare system. Also as Trix mentioned, Obamacare was supposed to make things cheaper and instead healthcare plans only went up. Do you honestly think people will be able to keep their old plans considering that Medicare for all is supposed to basically kill privatized healthcare. Also that is just one system you are talking about, are all those millionaires and billionaires supposed to also pay for free college which is all money they could be putting into something else?
Bernie's solution, not mine, is to put a tax on stocks/bonds and tax the 1%, anyone that has a net worth over $32 million. These two taxes alone (stocks/bonds/and 1%) will pay for both medicare for all and free tuition for everybody. These taxes make up more than enough money, not just enough money, but more than enough money to pay for healthcare and tuition. Both of these taxes, by the way, will not be felt by your average tax payer or American. You, me, John and Jane will not notice it. All we would reap is the benefits of free health care and free college. That is, of course, assuming everything works out as planned. We will never know unless we try.

Obamacare is not medicare for all. Obamacare was shit, everybody knows that. Obamacare didn't pay for health care for everybody. Under Obamacare, a very large portion of Americans were still paying for health insurance or paying for medical bills. It didn't function with our current healthcare system. It was like putting mustard and ketchup in a bowl of cereal, it simply did not mix and damaged a lot of stuff. With medicare for all, assuming it works out as planned, all medical expenses would be free - for every single American in the country. Nobody would pay anything out of pocket. That is the entire idea. Healthcare "plans" won't go up because everything will be free. You will have an option to buy private, more expensive health care if you choose to do so, but you do not need to do so. It will be free. It would be very different from Obamacare.

As for Medicare not being a good system, you need to go into details to explain why it isn't a good system. I can't think of a single person in America that is anti-medicare. I know people who are anti-certain people getting medicare, for example if you are able bodied and can work in our current system you shouldn't be able to get medicare. But medicare is what people on social security and disabled people use as insurance. The 65 year old person who is disabled and can't work uses medicare to pay for all of their medicines/surgeries/prescriptions/tests/appointments/etc completely free. When you are 70 years old and can no longer work, medicare is what will pay for your medications so you can continue to live. It's what is paying for millions of elderly's medicine to keep them alive. It's what pays for a substantial portion of cancer treatments in America. In fact, if you are diagnosed with a life-threatening cancer, you can apply for medicare and you will be accepted. With this, all of your cancer treatments are fully paid for.

Do you even know what medicare is? I am asking genuinely. Look up what it is and what it does. What Bernie wants to do is expand medicare (have it pay for any and all things, although it already pays for 99% of all medical treatment), and then instead of making it so you have to be 65 years or older (or disabled) to get it, he will gradually over a 4 year period bring it down to 55 years, 45 years, 35 years, 25 years, 15 years, 1 day, so that it applies to everybody. So, think of the medical insurance your grandpa or grandma uses that pays for all of their medical needs, and then over 4 years expand it and adjust it so that everyone gets it. That's literally all that Bernie wants to do.
 

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Speaking of medicare. Its a poorly designed and maintained system, regularly defrauded for billions of dollars annually.

There was a guy with connections to MMA recently who tried to defraud medicare of $120+ million:


There are many in the world running the same scam. Its been a known issue for years and the government has never made a legitimate effort to do anything about it.

This is not the system america wants or needs to fix healthcare.

In my humble and puny opinion anyways.

I remember people calling me crazy 2008 - 2009 for saying obamacare didn't do anything to fix healthcare. Now we have obamcare 2.0 aka medicare for all. Same story. Does nothing to fix healthcare. Does nothing to curb big pharma's massive profit margins or hospitals charging people 20,000% price mark ups on everything.

Like obamcare, medicare for all is extremely expensive and requires numerous tax hikes which will have significant negative effects on US job markets and the economy.

The government "fixing" healthcare is like UK's government hiking taxes and spending trillions to "fix" their illegal immigration and open borders issues. Its hard for them to fix something they themselves deliberately caused. It won't happen. Ever.
 
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