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Does a win over a top 10 p4p fighter warrant a spot on the list for that fighter?

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CoutureCop
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I was looking at Shitdog's p4p list, and saw that Frankie Edgar was now listed on the p4p list, one spot above Penn at #9. Also, I remember a while back and remember when Bowles beat Torres, he was temporarily on the list due to that win. To me, a p4p list is different from the rankings in that it takes into account the quality/dominance of wins, the quality of opponents, the diversity of opponents... Whereas a standard ranking list basically takes into account W/L records over quality opponents, i.e. mmamath. Therefore, a win over a top 10 p4p fighter will definitely hurt that fighters place on the list, but doesn't necessarily warrant a spot on the list for the newcomer.

So, in short, does a win over a legit top 10 p4p fighter warrant a spot on the list for that fighter? What if they barely beat them? What if the p4p fighter gets crushed? What do you guys think?
 

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Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Yes. And he should take the spot of the guy he beat. It's the only way to objectively keep track of a fighter's ability. If you beat a guy, you're better than him. So logically that guy you beat has to be behind you in any objective list. Bad decisions excluded.
 

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CoutureCop
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Discussion Starter #4
I get what you are saying, but I'm talking about a p4p list, not a ranking list. p4p takes into account far more variables than a rankings list because it is supposed to filter the fighters regardless of weight class. IMO, a win over one of those fighters doesn't give the winner all the accomplishments of the defeated fighter, and therefore doesn't warrant a spot on the list.
 

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Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Yes. And he should take the spot of the guy he beat. It's the only way to objectively keep track of a fighter's ability. If you beat a guy, you're better than him. So logically that guy you beat has to be behind you in any objective list. Bad decisions excluded.
I don't quite agree with that. That is like saying Serra is better than GSP when he beat him and then should have been on the p4p list.

Fighters can have off nights. It happens. B.J. was off against Frankie either because he didn't train enough or something else was up, but it is clear to me who is the better fighter.
 

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Absolutely not in my opinion. The guy's on the pound-for-pound rankings have spent a lifetime accomplishing ridiculous feats in the MMA world. To me, putting Frankie Edgar (though a great fighter) on the same list as guys like Fedor, Anderson Silva and GSP is ridiculous.

I'm not taking anything away from Edgar, and he has fought some quality opponents, but I just don't think he's P4P material yet.
 

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CoutureCop
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Discussion Starter #7
Absolutely not in my opinion. The guy's on the pound-for-pound rankings have spent a lifetime accomplishing ridiculous feats in the MMA world. To me, putting Frankie Edgar (though a great fighter) on the same list as guys like Fedor, Anderson Silva and GSP is ridiculous.

I'm not taking anything away from Edgar, and he has fought some quality opponents, but I just don't think he's P4P material yet.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. +rep
 

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I get what you are saying, but I'm talking about a p4p list, not a ranking list. p4p takes into account far more variables than a rankings list because it is supposed to filter the fighters regardless of weight class. IMO, a win over one of those fighters doesn't give the winner all the accomplishments of the defeated fighter, and therefore doesn't warrant a spot on the list.
P4P lists are subjective, so it really doesn't matter. Lists that don't reflect the current form of a fighter are useless in my opinion because time doesn't move backwards, so I guess my definition of P4P is more of a current ranking of who is better than who at this very moment instead of a who has the better accomplishments. I can look that up anytime I want on wikipedia.

Edit: Wow, I say P4P lists are useless and BAM! it's in the poll. :thumb02:
 

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CoutureCop
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Discussion Starter #9
P4P lists are subjective, so it really doesn't matter. Lists that don't reflect the current form of a fighter are useless in my opinion because time doesn't move backwards, so I guess my definition of P4P is more of a current ranking of who is better than who at this very moment instead of a who has the better accomplishments. I can look that up anytime I want on wikipedia.

Edit: Wow, I say P4P lists are useless and BAM! it's in the poll. :thumb02:
I figured that there is a group of people that don't care about the p4p list at all, so I put the option there. I hate voting on a poll that has unnecessarily limited options.
 

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I think there really needs to be at least one significant win, or a couple decent wins over fighters who are already on it. So in Frankie's case, no he shouldn't be on it YET. Now if Frank goes on to beat Gray Maynard, and maybe Florian... then sure.

On the flip side of that, when a pound for pount fighter loses, no matter who to. I can see where they would drop. Hell, as a die hard Anderson Silva fan (yes still), I would move Fedor over him for the moment... make him earn the top spot again.

Edit: I wanted to add. I think it's pretty clear to most that BJ is a better fighter than Frankie over all. But I will say this. Frankie Edgar fights to 100% of his ability everytime he fights, and if he doesn't you may say it was a 90% night at the worst. BJ on the other hand, has 50% or less nights here and there. So on the consistancy level, maybe Frank does deserve a higher spot.

Not really making an argument for that point, just saying.
 

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No. Just because someone was beat does not mean that the winner is a better fighter. If so the guy that beat fedor from a cut should be up there as he is the only guy to have beaten Fedor. If edgar retains the Belt for a while then sure he should be up there as he has proven it. P4P list are completly subjective though and this is one of those occasions where there will be a lot of people who think no and a lot of people who think yes. It just depends on how impressed you are by Edgar.
 

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Super Ultra Great Delicious Wonderful
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He deserves to be on there a hell of a lot more than Aoki who wouldn't even put up a fight against anyone in the top 4 of the ufc and has lost more fights. It isn't just that he beat BJ he made Sherk look like a joke and has several other quality wins and only 1 loss.
 

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Absolutely not in my opinion. The guy's on the pound-for-pound rankings have spent a lifetime accomplishing ridiculous feats in the MMA world. To me, putting Frankie Edgar (though a great fighter) on the same list as guys like Fedor, Anderson Silva and GSP is ridiculous.

I'm not taking anything away from Edgar, and he has fought some quality opponents, but I just don't think he's P4P material yet.
I like your opinion.
I thibk Edgar is great, but i would want him to defend his title at least 2-3 times against the guy he the belt from, and other top contenders: Florian, Maynard, Sotiropoulus and others. Then he could be a TOP P4P in any books.
P4P isn't just about beating a fighter that is considered to be better than you. It's about dominating, defending the title, making memorable fights, becoming a fans favorite. It's a mix ofa lot of things.
A little off-topic: every time rankings are brought up in a discussion, i think of Maia, Marquardt and Sonnen.
I think a lot of you people know what i mean :)
 

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One win over a top fighter doesn't make you a P4P contender. A couple of wins after that one and a rematch, then I think you could be on the P4P list. Not that it really means anything more than additional hype before the fight.
 

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WIDE OPEN
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I think he belongs on the list because of the big win, and he gets bonus p4p points for not cutting weight.

So really at 158lbs, he has a theoretically significant p4p edge on Sherk and BJ (Now, if either of them took him down, then it could have been different, but it WASN'T)
 
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