Mixed Martial Arts Forum banner

1 - 20 of 59 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I’ve read a lot of people post in forums about how Fedor Emelianenko would “crush” Brock Lesnar, and various threads and categories simply dedicated to the Brock Haters. Frankly, I have no personal bias towards either fighter. It’s easy to see that many people love Fedor Emelianenko because he looks like that regular guy that you’d see walking around the streets or at your local grocery mart picking the watermelon or jug of milk behind all the others just to ensure that it’s fresh. And on the flipside of the same coin, I can see why many people can hate Brock Lesnar because he’s got the “Superhero Archetype” and comes off very brash, and in all honesty, due to his actions in recent UFC events, pardon my language, a bit of an asshole. All external factors aside, I really should be working on my Biochemistry Lab right now, but from browsing various Forums with subject titles such as: “Unbiased Analysis of Fedor vs Lesnar.” First of all, it’s complete BS. When statements like; “Fedor is God” at this or that are thrown around, clearly a positive bias is towards Fedor. So in my frustrations, or I guess, my sense of just getting fed up of all these thoughtless forum posts, I decided I’d make a legitimately unbiased analysis of said fight, create a Sherdog account, and share my opinions with each and every one of you. Now before I go any further, I must say that I too, have my personal favourite fighters, and yes, Fedor Emelianenko is one of my favourite fighters, but, the difference between my post and many of the posts out there, is that I’m using my knowledge of fighting, and things that I, along with many other, more knowledgeable, fight analysts have noted in previous fights of both.

My analysis is going to be systematic. I will be factoring tangible and intangible things about both fighters, and at the end of each attribute, I’ll be naming the fighter with the advantage in the particular category. I’m not simply going to say that X fighter is better at this, period. That’s not how I analyze things (so to my fellow analytical comrades out there, you can rest easy knowing I actually did give this some thought). And for all of you out there who take little things like, who I mentioned first, into account. To keep things entirely unbiased, I will be mentioning Brock before Fedor simply because his name starts with a B, and B comes before F in the alphabet.

I’ve broken down the various attributes into Striking, Grown-Game, Transition between stand up and ground-game (Wrestling & Judo), the fighters ability to handle the pressure of a fight, Cardio, the fighter’s size, their ability to sustain being “rocked,” Experience, their ability to execute a game plan (and I use this very lightly since we don’t know for sure if a fighter is telling the truth when they disclose their game plans), and their ability to “put it all together,” and any External factors.

Here we go.


Striking:

Brock:
Brock’s stand up continually gets negated when he gets compared to other fighters. But it’s not much of a surprise considering the fact that his opponents worth mentioning in this category are Frank Mir; a muay thai practitioner who has a black belt in Kenpo Karate and learned the art at a young age, and Randy Couture; who is very dynamic with his head movement and has fairly decent hand speed himself, not to mention his affinity to “Dirty Boxing.” Brock’s power in the striking department should never be underestimated. From the little snip of a punch that landed on Randy Couture, to the beatings he handed both Min Soo Kim (submission due to strikes), Frank Mir (TKO, did you see his face?) in the second fight and the Orbital-bone-crushing punch that he gave to Heath Herring, I repeat myself for a reason, his power should NOT be underestimated. That having been said, speed is a cornerstone in striking, after all, what good is power when you can’t even hit your opponent? From the Randy Couture fight, his jabs and crosses were extremely slow. Since Brock’s biographies are always filled with his wrestling ventures, amateur and “professional,” so how long he’s been striking for is never really mentioned. Intuitively though, since there is no striking in amateur wrestling, and “professional” wrestling is about as fake as the idea of a Utopia, I think it’s safe to say that he hasn’t been practicing striking for a very long time. April 28, 2006 was the day that he announced his intent to fight, so we’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he had been training for a year, and say that his experience in the striking department can be dated to roughly April of 2005.

Fedor:
Fedor’s isn’t exactly the most technically sound striker out there with his looping hooks, but his accuracy is worth mentioning. All the way back to when he fought Semmy Schilt in his Pride debut, his short, yet powerful strikes has been something people have talked about. A majority of his fights, most notably the ones with Zuluzinho (left hook that dropped him), Fujita (left hook and right cross that dropped him), and his formidable timing of Andrei Arlovski, show his power. As far as his hand speed goes, he’s probably a lot faster than he is powerful when striking is concerned. The most impressive display of his hand speed, just to name a few, is in his fights with Tim Sylvia, Gary Goodridge, and more recently, Brett Rogers.

So to sum it all up for both the fighters in the striking department, I’d have to say that Fedor has the advantage in this department. What mainly factored into the decision was the lack of hand speed that Brock has. His power is probably more than Fedor’s, but to quantify it, out of 100 with 50% dedicated to power, and the other 50% dedicated to speed. Brock’s power and hand speed probably equate to about 65 to 70. While Fedor’s combination on the same scale, would probably match up to 90 to 95, with his shortcomings due to his power.

Advantage: Fedor Emelianenko.


Ground-Game:

Brock:
Wrestling is often correlated with the transition between stand up and the ground game, and despite the fact that wrestling has no submissions, it’s worth mentioning that being able to control your opponent once on the ground is of key importance. That being said, Brock has a series of wrestling titles that you can go ahead and look up for yourself, and despite the fact that he most likely has little to no submission prowess, his ability to control someone on the ground is terrific. His display of this skill was very prominent in both Frank Mir fights, more so the second. His submission defense has slowly gotten better as we saw in the second Frank Mir fight when Frank changed levels for a knee bar early in the fight. That being said, we haven’t yet seen how Brock handles the guard since he’s most often found himself in either half-guard or side-control. As far as his submission offense is concerned, well it’s way too soon to tell, and I think it’s quite obvious that he is the type to work on submission defense more than submission offense, but again, we haven’t seen any threatening submission displays.

Fedor:
As for Fedor’s ground game, if we were to compare it to his striking, his advantage would most likely be the ground game. As an aside, most of his wins do come from submission, but I say this extremely lightly since most people out there are quick to dismiss the MMA Math, and understandably so. The thing about Fedor’s ground game, is that he’s not like the Nogueira brothers, or your BJ Penn’s, or your Damian Maia’s and isn’t of the highest level in BJJ, but, his foundation is phenomenal. Of his 16 submissions to date, 4 are Rear Naked Chokes, 6 are Armbars, 3 are Kimuras, 2 are Guillotines, and 1 from strikes (which we won’t count for obvious reasons). That being said, RNC, Armbar, Kimura and the Guillotine choke, are all rudimentary moves in the BJJ world, but the fluidity at which he can perform these moves is of utmost importance. I’ll be the first to admit that I haven’t seen all of Fedor’s fights, but I will say that a few of the wins via armbar were executed when they were in his guard. Mark Coleman (both times), and the fight with Hong Man Choi comes to mind. Anybody who has actually free rolled will know that it’s one thing to be on top of someone, or be in their guard, but it’s a completely different feeling when someone is on top of YOU and in YOUR guard. So to be able to execute an armbar when an opponent is in your guard says a lot about how comfortable a fighter is in their guard, and to be able to swivel your hips as fast as Fedor did to execute the armbars in the first Coleman fight and the Choi fight, says a lot about his experience on the ground. And as far as him being on top is concerned, he has really good control when he’s on top and has very smooth transitions between the guard, half guard, side control and mount, a la Brett Rogers, and most notably, Semmy Schilt (yes I know he’s just a K-1 fighter, but this was in 2002, how much has Fedor progressed since then?).

Factoring all that I’ve mentioned, I’d have to give the edge to Fedor on this one. Yes, Brock most likely has better control and would most probably end up on top. Being in Fedor’s guard isn’t exactly a fun time, and I’m sure Mark Coleman can attest to this. Furthermore, Fedor has an innate ability to catch people in submissions when they’re pounding at him, and again, watch the Mark Coleman and Hong Man Choi fights for this. So if there was a scenario where Brock ends up on top of Fedor, who knows how that would turn out, all things factored in, Fedor would likely have an advantage.

Advantage: Fedor Emelianenko.


Transition:

Brock:
Now looking at wrestling from the transition standpoint, Brock’s ability to take people down is world-class. As mentioned many times by many MMA pundits, the fact that he likely walks around at around 280 lbs and shoots for a take-down the same speed at which a welterweight or middleweight would, is simply incredible. His take down offense is a strength, being able to take down Frank Mir at will in both the first and second fights is a statement since Frank Mir also has a couple of wrestling championships under his name, and though they’re not of the same caliber of Brock or Randy’s, that simply says that Frank isn’t a slouch in the wrestling department. His take down defense can’t be evenly measured since the times he’s been taken down are by Randy Couture, and I’ll leave his wrestling achievements up to you to research. His defensive skills against Judo practitioners haven’t really been tested either, so that’s still a little bit of a cloudy area.

Fedor:
Fedor is a blackbelt at Judo and Combat Sambo. Now for those of you that don’t know what Sambo is, it’s another discipline that’s based on fighting without weapons, to be put blunt, close-quarters combat. Combat Sambo, in particular, is also very similar to modern MMA, in that it utilizes both striking and grappling, and obviously Judo-like throws and take downs. So being a blackbelt in both Judo and Sambo, it’s safe to say that Fedor is pretty good at throwing people to the ground, but his take down defense should also be noted. Mark Coleman, an NCAA Div. I and Olympic (yes, I’m aware of the fact that he only placed 7th overall, but he was still IN the Olympics wasn’t he?) wrestler had quite a tough time taking Fedor down. Matt Lindland was able to take Fedor down by simply picking him up, and though Fedor reversed it, there were many controversies on how Fedor used the ropes to push off and create momentum for a slam. To those who say this, I ask, couldn’t he do the same thing with a cage? Needless to say, Lindland was able to take him down, but let’s not forget he’s an Olympic Silver medalist.

Factoring everything, I’d say that Brock has an advantage in this. He’s able to take people down, almost at will, and it takes a pretty good wrestler to take him down. That being said, as I mentioned before, we haven’t seen anybody use any Judo-style throws on him, so that’s yet to be seen, but taking into account what he’s done, and who he’s fought, I’d give Brock the edge on this one.

Advantage: Brock Lesnar.


Handling Pressure:

Brock:
Even though this is MMA (real fighting) and we’re not talking about “professional” wrestling (greasy fake fighting), I believe that being in front of a large crowd despite what it is you’re doing, has an effect on a person. That being said, yes, Brock was a “professional” wrestler, but it’s very important to realize that he was in front of large crowds every week. I think it’s safe to say that being in front of a large crowd doesn’t faze Brock Lesnar, and that he’s actually quite comfortable handling the pressure. Not to mention the fact that he was the main event of UFC’s Centennial event. Now I don’t know which WWE event that Brock was in had the biggest attendance, but from my limited knowledge, I know their “Wrestlemania” event is quite an important one, and the one that he was last in was #20, with an attendance of 20,000 people. Furthermore, Brock’s only had 5 fights in total and really doesn’t have too much pressure when keeping his record as unblemished as possible (yes, you know where I’m going with this).

Fedor:
Even though Fedor hasn’t been exposed to crowds at nearly the same frequency as Brock Lesnar, the size of the crowds should also be taken into account. In “The Baddest Man on the Planet,” Bas Rutten states that events with 60 to 70 thousand people in attendance just to watch Fedor fight have happened in the east, and that the people in the back have to use BINOCULARS, just to be able to see the fight. And as for Fedor, he’s fought 33 times, and his main claim to fame would most likely be his relatively unblemished record. That being said, I’d say there’s a little bit of pressure there.

Comparing Brock’s frequency of exposure to large crowds, and the size of crowds, coupled with his untainted record, I’d have to say that Fedor is better at handling the pressures of fighting.

Advantage: Fedor Emelianenko.


Cardio:

Brock:
We already know that Brock is a monster when it comes to his cardio, so there isn’t much to say here. However, cardio in and out of a fight are two completely different things. That being said, Brock astonishingly looked a bit tired in the latter half of the first round when fighting Randy Couture. But with his low number of fights, it’s still a little too soon to tell how his in-fight cardio is, and not to mention the fact that the only fight that went to a decision, was a non-championship fight (Heath Herring), so it only lasted 15 minutes.

Fedor:
For those of you that didn’t watch Pride when it was around probably aren’t aware of the fact that the first round in Pride fights were 10 minutes, and not 5 like most organizations around today. With that said, 4 of his fights in Pride went to the decision, a total of 20 minutes each.

I hold this attribute at a low regard, simply because a fighter’s cardio is dependent on how they train for their most recent fight. However, it is still worth mentioning, and it’s clear that both fighters can do what it takes to get to a decision and still win. I’d still have to give a slight edge to Fedor since he’s proven that he can last 20 minutes, and Brock has only shown that he can last 15 minutes (so far). But in the interest of fairness, I’ll say that there isn’t a clear advantage for either fighter, and leave it as a tie.

Advantage: Tie.


Size:

Brock:
For all the Brock haters out there, I realize that you’ve heard this time and time again, but the fact still remains; Brock Lesnar is the closest human being in MMA today that resembles the Lochness Monster. At 6’3”, weighing in at 265 lbs, and supposedly walking around at around 280 lbs, it’s clear that Brock had the purest milk a farm can offer. He hasn’t fought anybody his own size, or larger than him, and thus far, has only fought people that are smaller than him. We already know he can beat on people smaller than him, but whether or not he can handle people the same size or larger than him still remains a questions to be answered by Shane Carwin.

Fedor:
Fedor isn’t the biggest guy in MMA, and certainly doesn’t resemble the Lochness Monster in any way, shape or form, but his ability to handle opponents the same size or larger than him is what makes him shine. He’s 6’0”, weighing in at 233 lbs. Here’s the list of fighters that were bigger than Fedor in both height and weight (with the exception of Big Nog in weight):

-Heath Herring is 6’3”, 250 lbs
-Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira is 6’3”, 230 lbs
-Gary Goodridge is 6’1”, 250 lbs
-Zuluzinho is 6’7”, 390 lbs
-Hong Man Choi is 7’2”, 319 lbs
-Tim Sylvia is 6’8”, 287 lbs
-Brett Rogers is 6’5”, 264 lbs,
-and Semmy Schilt is 6’11”, 290 lbs.

Keeping in mind that I only chose the ones that I knew for a fact were both taller and outweighed Fedor, and only put Big Nog in the mix because of his BJJ prowess (the roots of BJJ is to give the smaller man the advantage over a larger man). And no, these guys aren’t all cans. Heath Herring, Tim Sylvia and Brett Rogers would probably be best classed as B or B+ level fighters. Semmy Schilt is a terrific striker, as is Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, but obviously more of a BJJ practitioner. And Gary Goodridge, Zuluzinho, and Hong Man Choi are just huge freaking human beings that just cannot be ignored.

Considering the fact that Fedor is able to dismantle guys that are bigger than him, and anybody is able to pick apart smaller guys, I’d have to give this to Fedor. Yes Brock is a large fellow, but Fedor’s been down that alley before, and more importantly, beaten guys like that.

Advantage: Fedor Emelianenko.


Handling being “Rocked”:

Brock:
We haven’t seen Brock really be “rocked,” but it’s worth mentioning that he stated he “saw tweety birds” (Brock Lesnar, post-fight interview), when he was hit with the flying knee of Frank Mir. Looking at the video over and over again, it really looks to me that Frank Mir didn’t even connect the knee as much as he could have. Fighters that have fought Brock have also said that he doesn’t like being hit, but that’s more speculation than anything, and is basically useless in this category since a fighter’s affinity to being hit has nothing to do with how they can handle being rocked. That being said, since Brock himself admitted to seeing flashing lights after the knee, we can say that he was at least “half rocked,” and how he handled the situation was exactly how he should’ve. He stuck close to Frank Mir, and even ended up in half guard, spent some time to recover, and proceeded to pound away at Mir. At this point in time, we haven’t yet seen Brock get hit with a clean shot while standing to see how he’d react, so it’s a little too soon to tell.

Fedor:
Fujita. Enough said. According to Fedor, Kazuyuki Fujita is the only man that ever hit him right, and we saw how that ended up. Fedor got him in the clinch and kept him there until he could recover, and after he did, went back at his game plan en-route to a victory.

Since Brock hasn’t really been tested in that regard, it may be a little too soon to tell, but if you watch the Fujita fight, you’ll know why I give Fedor the advantage in this regard. Furthermore, a part of Fedor’s training that I’ve never seen any other fighter do, is he spins around with his index finger in front of his face until he gets dizzy (it’s absolutely one of the funniest things I’ve seen), and once he’s dizzy, he’ll start shadow boxing. I’ve had a few fights myself and have been hit clean before, and I’ll tell you that being dizzy is not far from being “rocked.” That being said, just the fact that Fedor, on top of training everything else, also trains for situations where he’s been “rocked” should give him the right to earn this advantage.

Advantage: Fedor Emelianenko.


Experience:

Brock:
Yes, Brock has only fought 5 times in his career, but it’s extremely imperative to note that with the exception of Min Soo Kim, he’s fought some good fighters. So he has cut the experience line a little bit and gone ahead and fought some good fighters right from the on-set, but the fact still remains; he’s only been fighting since 2007. His lack of experience was clearly exposed when Frank Mir beat him with a knee-bar, and though he was able to fix that hole in his game, he fought the same guy with the same types of strategies, and who knows how many other holes there are in his game that may be exploited?

Fedor:
Fedor has been a professional fighter since 2000, and practicing Sambo and Judo since the late 90’s.

It’s worth mentioning experience, but it isn’t something that will really make or break a fighter, much less dictate how a fight goes, but it is something to mention. That being said, I feel it’s unfair to count Fedor’s advantage in this category since Randy Couture, Heath Herring, and Frank Mir’s experience didn’t help them beat Brock. So despite Fedor’s advantage in this category, I won’t be using this category in the final break-down, and just added this because it I feel it’s worth mentioning.

Discounted Advantage: Fedor Emelianenko.


Ability to execute a gameplan:

Brock:
Brock’s gameplan has ultimately been the same all along. Get my opponent to the ground, and punch him until he either submits, or the referee stops the fight. And thus far, he’s been 4 and 1 with an 80% success rate.

Fedor:
Fedor’s gameplans vary with the opponent. From clearly wanting to take the fight to the ground, a la Semmy Schilt, to keeping the fight a standing up or utilizing ground and point, a la Big Nog, and Gary Goodridge, he’s clearly able to execute his game plans effectively. And with his only loss via a technicality, I don’t think I need any numbers to be able to say that he’s got a 100% success rate.

Factoring everything in, when we keep in mind that Brock Lesnar has an 80% success rate, his tactic against Frank Mir the first time around, wasn’t exactly the smartest. And yes I know people are going to say; “but he was beating him until the ref stopped the fight!” Well to that I say that if the sperm that penetrated my mother’s ovum at the time of my conception didn’t have a Y chromosome, I might’ve been a girl. Pardon my language, but who gives a shit how the fight was going at the time, the fact still remains, he lost that fight and his game plan played into Frank Mir’s strengths. As far as Fedor’s game planning is concerned, the fight against Semmy Schilt clearly shows that if he respects the other fighter’s stand up, he’ll have none of it, and with Big Nog, he never got careless. I’d have to say that since Fedor doesn’t play into the other fighter’s strengths and uses his other skills in order to win a fight; he has a slight advantage over Brock in this one.

Advantage: Fedor Emelianenko.


Putting it all together:

Brock:
Brock clearly has overwhelming strengths in his ability to take guys down, or keep guys from taking him down. He also has ridiculous power when he punches people. However, he still hasn’t been able to seamlessly transition from striking, to taking his opponent down. Most, if not all of his take downs haven’t been set up from strikes, and were clearly telegraphed take downs. Albeit, his speed makes up for the tactical deficiency, that is still a deficiency nonetheless. Furthermore, he hasn’t yet shown any offensive submission skills; so thus far, his strengths are limited to taking guys down and punching them until he wins. It really isn’t clear how effective his striking is, but he did manage to clip Randy Couture and proceeded to pound on his head for the win, but we’ve never seen him really keep guys from taking him down and force a stand-up battle. I think it’s also important to note that his posture and the way he looks just in general while he’s striking, makes him look like he’s not exactly comfortable standing up. Granted that’s not really a point that should be held with much weight, he just doesn’t seem loose when he’s in “stand up mode.”

Fedor:
As I’ve mentioned in both the striking, and ground-game categories, Fedor isn’t the best by any means in both respects. But his strength is clearly his ability to mesh both, and seamlessly move between either or to secure the advantage. His fights with Fujita, Tim Sylvia, and Hong Man Choi really exhibit this. He very effortlessly strikes with his opponent, but when an opportunity to submit his opponent arises, he takes the opportunity for the win.

Though I didn’t factor in the experience category, I have to factor this in for the final break down. The level of comfort a fighter has in transitioning between different styles is the epitome of what MMA is, and in my opinion, this category is most probably the most important when MMA is concerned. After all, it is MIXED Martial Arts, right?

Advantage: Fedor Emelianenko.


External Factors:
For this category I won’t be separating Brock and Fedor simply because it’s too general of a category and is just too damn hard to separate into two different thought processes. I will also note that these External Factors are just here to note subtle differences in certain strengths that either fighter may or may not have, and will not be giving an advantage to either fighter. The first thing I’d like to mention is the fact that Brock is training with the Minnesota Martial Arts Academy with Greg Nelson, and is clearly sparring in a cage on a daily basis. Fedor, on the other hand, has spent the majority of his career fighting in rings and only recently began fighting in cages. For those of you that don’t know why there’s a difference between either or (fighting is fighting right?), you should know that in an organization that has a ring, when the fighters are on the ground near the ropes, the fight has to be stopped, repositioned to the middle of the ring, and recommenced. This is clearly not how a real fight goes, and the cage also creates a new dimension that a ring doesn’t, a wall. The cages aren’t designed the same way your chain link fence is in your front or back yard. They’re tied down at the bottom, so the bottom corner of where the chain link fencing meets the ring, is stationary and doesn’t provide much give. And since there is no worry for fighters possibly falling off the ring, the fighters can continue their fight despite being in the perimeter of the fighting ground and even use the fencing as a wall to close in on their fighters. Now Fedor has stated that he’s already began training in a cage, but we still don’t know if that will prove to be a problem for him in the future. Another thing worth mentioning is that Fedor tends to get cut EXTREMELY easily, and that is also another way for a fighter to lose, but on the flipside of the same coin, Brock also gets cut quite easily, so this is just something that I decided to throw out there.


So with everything tallied up, we have Fedor with 8 advantages, 1 of which was discounted, and Brock with 1 advantage, and 1 tie. Forgive the long analysis, but I tried to make this as systematic, unbiased, and knowledgeable as possible. I realize that there are many people who still think that the sport is called UFC, and haven’t yet ventured out to MMA organizations that are housed in the east. That being said, there are always going to be the morons who think they know everything, and I realize that this will more than likely cause quite a stir with many of the aforementioned morons replying with posts like; “Brock is God,” “F*** Fedor,” “Fedor is the best, period,” and other mindless nonsense. This is for the true fans out there that aren’t just post-Ultimate Fighter MMA fans and if so, have actually made an effort to venture out to watch other organizations beyond the UFC. Yes, the UFC is more accessible to you, but everybody knows about Youtube, use the damn thing and search for fights, and do some kind of educated research before you say foolish things or write a fighter off just because you haven’t heard of them.

My Conclusion: Fedor Emelianenko would beat Brock Lesnar, but a fight is a fight, and until that happens, everything you just read is just speculation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
126 Posts
great post dude! one thing that scares me about the matchup tho is the fact that Brock is a fantasic wrestler with control AND as big as some of those larger guys. Those big guys were big but really didnt know how to USE that big. guys like zulu or schilt arent wrestlers so would be easier to control/escape hairy situations. With brock, he knows how to use his size and his size matches well with his skills. Quite simply, if coleman were 280lbs, would fedor have been able to do what he did to him, or would he have just held fedor down and punched a hole in his face? can someone address this question because it is at the core of the fight.

You can be big but not strong/not a good wrestler. I am a smaller guy yet stronger than alot of my big buddies and because i know how to wrestle can rag doll em!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
209 Posts
WOW! great post. I agree with pretty much everything you've said because you've backed them up with sound reasoning. Fedor is so strong in so many areas of MMA, it's hard for him to not be the favorite.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,300 Posts
Well well done for putting a lot of work in, first paragraph was sort of smug but anyway. Unfortunately I don't agree with your conclusions (though yes I have Fedor winning)

Stand up - Brock has power, but no speed, and no skill. Fedor has enough power, lots of speed, lots of skill (if unorthodox), his only weakness is to jabs, and it hasn't ever lost him a round.
Fed win.

Take down - Brock can get you down if he wants, but he did struggle with Randy, though got it in the end, he's not as good as everyone thinks. Randy got back up, though Mir got fucked up there, as Randy didn't, perhaps that was a shortcoming of Mir's. Fedor can get you down, but isn't good at keeping you down, his takedowns rely on surprise, he can't rely on them exclusively.
Brock win

On the ground - Fed has nasty ground and pound, but can't keep fighters down. He has submissions from his back, and is very good at getting back up with them. Brock has the best ground and pound we have ever seen. By sheer size he should have no prob getting back up if on his back. Though he has little submission knowledge, strength and smother should make up for it now he's learned his lesson.
Brock win

Toughness - Fedor has been rocked, but quickly regenerates (or whatever he does), no bad situation or damage is more than a temporary snafu for him. Brock hasn't faced anyone with dangerous hands, Mir though did rock him, and Randy at least hurt him. More tellingly he didn't stay calm when Mir was submitting him. Still Brock's head is bigger.
Fed win

Heart - Fed comes in to win, and is full on aggression, with a cool head too, from start to finish. Brock is happy to play it safe, and just doesn't have that aggression.
Fed win

Fed > Brock
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
773 Posts
Im fair, unbiased but i really dont like those brock haters.....great article
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Agreed

Well well done for putting a lot of work in, first paragraph was sort of smug but anyway. Unfortunately I don't agree with your conclusions (though yes I have Fedor winning)

Stand up - Brock has power, but no speed, and no skill. Fedor has enough power, lots of speed, lots of skill (if unorthodox), his only weakness is to jabs, and it hasn't ever lost him a round.
Fed win.

Take down - Brock can get you down if he wants, but he did struggle with Randy, though got it in the end, he's not as good as everyone thinks. Randy got back up, though Mir got fucked up there, as Randy didn't, perhaps that was a shortcoming of Mir's. Fedor can get you down, but isn't good at keeping you down, his takedowns rely on surprise, he can't rely on them exclusively.
Brock win

On the ground - Fed has nasty ground and pound, but can't keep fighters down. He has submissions from his back, and is very good at getting back up with them. Brock has the best ground and pound we have ever seen. By sheer size he should have no prob getting back up if on his back. Though he has little submission knowledge, strength and smother should make up for it now he's learned his lesson.
Brock win

Toughness - Fedor has been rocked, but quickly regenerates (or whatever he does), no bad situation or damage is more than a temporary snafu for him. Brock hasn't faced anyone with dangerous hands, Mir though did rock him, and Randy at least hurt him. More tellingly he didn't stay calm when Mir was submitting him. Still Brock's head is bigger.
Fed win

Heart - Fed comes in to win, and is full on aggression, with a cool head too, from start to finish. Brock is happy to play it safe, and just doesn't have that aggression.
Fed win

Fed > Brock
I agree with you too, and yes Brock does have phenomenal ground game, but I guess this category is more dependent on game planning and execution than we both say. Your point is true that Brock can smother opponents, and if he's able to keep the fight at side control, he has a pretty good chance at it. That said, Kevin Randleman was also in side control after he handed Fedor what I call The Death Slam (because in all honesty, it's a wonder how Fedor lived after that lol), and he was still able to reverse Randleman. Granted Randlman isn't Brock, I think the ridiculous slam shortly followed by the reversal should be accounted for. But I guess mostly the reason why I gave Fedor the edge on that one was because he does have a great ability to pull guard again, and from there, it's his game like we've seen time and time again. But like I said, if Brock can keep it in side control and execute a plan similar to what he did with Frank Mir the second time around, because I doubt his coaches would tell him to do the same, and not to mention Fedor's coaches would've game planned for a scenario like that already, then I think that Brock would have the edge. So ultimately, I guess that one should be up to the fight, but awesome points man. Different angles from mine, and also very good points.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
haha

Wow, you've taken a lot of time to do this.

Excellent first post.
Thanks man, and yes it did take me quite a bit of time to put it all together, but the overwhelming feeling of, "thank goodness it's finally over" that I felt after finishing was definitely well worth the effort!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,224 Posts
Great post man and welcome to MMAForum. Looking forward to reading more from you. :thumbsup:

You make some great points. The main critique I have is that while Brock hasnt faced anyone like Fedor thus far (not even close) the same could be said about Fedor.

What makes Brock a dangerous match up for him is the combination of size, strength, wrestling + sub defense, something that neither Coleman, Randleman and HMC really have/had. Brock is also significantlty larger than Mark and Kevin.

Also I disagree that cardio wise theyre tied. Fedor's cardio is much better than Brock's.

Standing, they both have the ability of dropping/Koing their opponent but Fedor is quicker, more precise and his defense is light years ahead of Lesnar's.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
Great post, but i still think Brock would win, but no one will know until they fight and that is the TRUTH! People can go on and on about advantages and disadvantages but that is on paper no one knows what will really happen in a fight between these two period. but like i said great post and yes on paper (which is the only way to compare them until they fight) Fedor has the overall advantage, but that is what makes MMA so great there is that "X" factor that is unaccounted for. I mean how can one truly measure heart, determination, willpower. Simply you cant. This fight would insane though!!!!!
 

·
ROCKET FISTS
Joined
·
5,743 Posts
Great post man and welcome to MMAForum. Looking forward to reading more from you. :thumbsup:

You make some great points. The main critique I have is that while Brock hasnt faced anyone like Fedor thus far (not even close) the same could be said about Fedor.

What makes Brock a dangerous match up for him is the combination of size, strength, wrestling + sub defense, something that neither Coleman, Randleman and HMC really have/had. Brock is also significantlty larger than Mark and Kevin.

Also I disagree that cardio wise theyre tied. Fedor's cardio is much better than Brock's.

Standing, they both have the ability of dropping/Koing their opponent but Fedor is quicker, more precise and his defense is light years ahead of Lesnar's.

Lesnar has KO power and above average sub defense? He's been submitted before and has never KO'd anyone. :confused:

Plus Coleman on roids could very well be as strong as Lesnar. Lesnar can bench 450lbs. Can anyone find the bench of Coleman in say, 2002?


The cardio thing. We've never seen Fedor look tired. I don't think we've ever seen Lesnar look tired. It's hard to tell who's cardio is better - I want to of course say Fedor, his long matches were much more dynamic than Lesnar's 3 rounds against Herring.

Of course I want to say Fedor has better cardio but either way I don't say it will affect their fight.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,224 Posts
Lesnar has KO power and above average sub defense? He's been submitted before
Fighters do improve their skills you know?

If you dont believe me you can go re-watch Brock/Herring and Brock/Mir 2 and see how efficiently he's nullified his opponents' guards throughout the whole fight.

Not comparing Heath and Mir to Fedor, just saying Brock's shown good sub defense in all of his fight (bar Mir 1).

and has never KO'd anyone. :confused:
I said "ability to drop/KO their opponents".

Please remove your anti-Lesnar glasses next time you read anything about Lesnar or Fedor.. This way you can see what's actually written.

Plus Coleman on roids could very well be as strong as Lesnar. Lesnar can bench 450lbs. Can anyone find the bench of Coleman in say, 2002?
Lesnar is about 40 lbs heavier than Pride Coleman and they're both very good wrestlers.

That's a ridiculous assumption but youre free to believe it..
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,638 Posts
alot of effort prob went into that, props, i couldnt go into big detail like that.

One thing i dont understand is how would Fedor have the Size advantage?? Thats kind of ridiculous. I know he has handled big guys before but that doesnt mean he has a size advantage.

Coleman as strong as Brock hehe i'd say when your breaking orbital bones (btw you said you broke yours playing tennis but never went further into detail?? its one of the hardest bones in the face to break...) and GnPing Mirs face into hamburger helper would be enough evidence to think he has it?? Or just clipping Randy and dropping him?? I dunno...

One thing, im a Brock supporter but i thought he looked tired in the Randy fight, had me kind of worried. That being said like the OP stated cardio is often a fight to fight thing, just look at Shogun for example.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,224 Posts
alot of effort prob went into that, props, i couldnt go into big detail like that.

One thing i dont understand is how would Fedor have the Size advantage?? Thats kind of ridiculous. I know he has handled big guys before but that doesnt mean he has a size advantage.

Coleman as strong as Brock hehe i'd say when your breaking orbital bones (btw you said you broke yours playing tennis but never went further into detail?? its one of the hardest bones in the face to break...) and GnPing Mirs face into hamburger helper would be enough evidence to think he has it?? Or just clipping Randy and dropping him?? I dunno...

One thing, im a Brock supporter but i thought he looked tired in the Randy fight, had me kind of worried. That being said like the OP stated cardio is often a fight to fight thing, just look at Shogun for example.
TS said he does ?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,535 Posts
Awesome first post. But I'm not sure how you can give size to Fedor, just because he's beaten some pretty average, but big guys. Brock uses his size to very good effect as he's not big and slow like most of those other guys mentioned, he's a real athlete. He's incredibly quick in using his takedowns, and then at around 280lbs he's a massive unit to shift when he's on top of you. Fedor's faced guys bigger than Brock, but he's not faced anyone with the mix between size, wrestling ability and speed that Lesnar possesses. I'd have to give the size advantage to Lesnar.

The rest of the post I'd agree with though, it's an excellent write up. Look forward to seeing more of you around here (Y).
 

·
ROCKET FISTS
Joined
·
5,743 Posts
Fighters do improve their skills you know?

If you dont believe me you can go re-watch Brock/Herring and Brock/Mir 2 and see how efficiently he's nullified his opponents' guards throughout the whole fight.

Not comparing Heath and Mir to Fedor, just saying Brock's shown good sub defense in all of his fight (bar Mir 1).



I said "ability to drop/KO their opponents".

Please remove your anti-Lesnar glasses next time you read anything about Lesnar or Fedor.. This way you can see what's actually written.



Lesnar is about 40 lbs heavier than Pride Coleman and they're both very good wrestlers.

That's a ridiculous assumption but youre free to believe it..

That fight was less than two years ago when he got submitted. Mayhem has above average sub defense, Ben Henderson is unsubmittable, GSP has above average sub defense... I just don't see the justification in grouping Lesnar with these guys yet. We've seen him against one submission guy... and he's 1-1 with him.

And I think Coleman is 6'1" and used to weigh in at around 255lbs? I don't see any way that Lesnar has 40lbs on him unless you're one of those guys who believes Lesnar is 300lbs on fightnight.


As to the KO/drop their opponents thing; Lesnar dropped Herring but Herring was 100% lucid during the entire thing, he didn't rock him or daze him or anything. And again, that's one punch in his entire career. Hard to say he has KO power as a result. I rocked a training partner recently with a jab for the first and only time, I guess you can just call me Shane Carwin? ;)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,224 Posts
That fight was less than two years ago when he got submitted. Mayhem has above average sub defense, Ben Henderson is unsubmittable, GSP has above average sub defense... I just don't see the justification in grouping Lesnar with these guys yet. We've seen him against one submission guy... and he's 1-1 with him.
Again, fighters do improve their skills. Id rather look at a fighter's most recent performances to gauge where they stand skills-wise.

Lesnar's shown good sub defense in his last couple of fights, against 2 opponents who are no slouches on the ground. Not saying it's great but it's better than Coleman or Randleman's, and that was the whole point I was making since the beginning.

Saying GSP has "above average sub defense" is questionable. When was the last time he was in any kind of trouble on the ground? That's right, 5 years ago... If anything his sub defense is very good.

Same goes with Mayhem man. Dude's never been subbed and he had Jacare and Shields mounting him.. How can you say his sub defense is only "above average". It's very good, dude's impossible to sub.

And I think Coleman is 6'1" and used to weigh in at around 255lbs? I don't see any way that Lesnar has 40lbs on him unless you're one of those guys who believes Lesnar is 300lbs on fightnight.
link?

Your talking out of your ass bro..

http://www.pridefc.com/pride2005/index.php?mainpage=fighters&fID=56

Lesnar is about 280 on fight night. 280 - 245 = 35 lbs.

Before you start saying "but you said 40, not 35!!", keep in mind that I said "about 40 lbs of weight difference" since there are articles/interviews suggesting he steps in the cage at just under 280, and others saying he's just over.

Anyhow, Brock is at least 35 lbs bigger than Pride Coleman. So I really doubt he's stronger than Brock.


As to the KO/drop their opponents thing; Lesnar dropped Herring but Herring was 100% lucid during the entire thing, he didn't rock him or daze him or anything. And again, that's one punch in his entire career. Hard to say he has KO power as a result. I rocked a training partner recently with a jab for the first and only time, I guess you can just call me Shane Carwin? ;)
Yeah cause Lesnar's only dropped Herring in his MMA career :sarcastic12:

Dude seriously, your obvious Lesnar hate clouds EVERYTHING you say about him, not only your opinions are biased but your facts are wrong as well.

It's really starting to get annoying.. It's almost getting to a point where I want to see Fedor lose just for the sake of seeing your reaction and how youre going to spin it, and Im a big Fedor fan in case you havent noticed.

This thread has "UNBIASED" in its title, you shouldnt be allowed anywhere near it.
 
1 - 20 of 59 Posts
Top