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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Let's play a game. I will compare two fighters, to which I will not reveal the names of until the end of this post, and I will break down the similarities and ironic differences that follow them. Let's begin.

Fighter A: formally particularly skilled/dominant in one area of MMA with some decent showings in other aspects of MMA.

Fighter B: currently particularly skilled/dominant in one are of MMA with some deceint showings in other aspects of MMA.

Reason for Fighter A's one particular skill: freakish genetics, incredibly long range, very tall for his weight class and good at using his range and strength to shrug people off.

Reason for Fighter B's one particular skill: freakish genetics, incredible athlete, incredible base and strength to shrug people off and the ability to not be shrugged off.

Fighter A's skill: stay outside, pick apart fighters who aren't as genetically freaked up while standing. By pick apart, we mean use jabs in the safest fashion possible.

Fighter B's skill: incredible takedowns, keeps active enough for the fight not to be stood up because of his incredible, genetically freakish frame to which he cannot be shrugged off and has the cardio to keep it going.

Fighter A's result: A decision after a dominating performance.

Fighter B's result: A decision after a dominating performance.

Fighter A's exceptions: Occasionally, fighter A showed he could pack a lot in his punch and did rock some guys here and there, but nothing could overcome the safe route he took. While his wins may have been dominant, they do not define the true meaning of "dominant."

Fighter B's exceptions: Occasionally, fighter B will show overall skill to which everyone knows he has and actually use it to finish a fight like a so called "p4p best fighter in the world" would do. Sadly, as of this moment, nothing can overcome the safe route he takes with his particular skill. While his wins may have been dominant, they do not define the true meaning of "dominant."

Majority thoughts on fighter A's opponents: Overall, people thought he had mediocore competition. After he used that particular skill to beat them, said opponent would continue to be mediocore.

Majority thoughts on fighter B's opponents: The last fight fighter B's had, his opponent, to many people, didn't even deserve a title shot, was said that he would lose to any other top contender in fighter B's weight class. After the fight, fighter B's opponent is looked at as legit, being tough as nails, a fantastic checkmark on the record of fighter B's resume after being called mediocore and not deserving in the process.

Fighter A's fan reaction: Hateful. Fighter A took more criticism then any other fighter on the world wide web, in interviews, even brought up by the announce team. Criticized for taking the safe route.

Fighter B's fan reaction: Glorious. Fighter B gets the recognition as being the best fighter in the world for essentially doing the exact same thing fighter A has, only the fan reaction is the complete opposite.

Reason for fighter A's reaction: Cocky, arrogant, completely obnoxious in interviews, made excuses for himself, wore his title in public, unattractive, fat rolls, unproportioned body, lame sideburns, you name it.

Reason for fighter B's reaction: A classy guy, doesn't get too caught up in the trash talking aspect, likes to just chill out, friendly towards fans, at one time showed the real dominance to potentially become the best fighter in the world before (and still to this day) being mentally weak when it comes to fighters not superior to him, a good looking guy, freakishly ripped, a funny accent, you name it.

While fighter B is obviously more technically and overall skilled then fighter A, it still doesn't change the fact that these two fighters are doing (or at one time did) the exact same thing with one particular skill.

If you haven't guessed it already, fighter A is none other then Tim Sylvia, former UFC heavyweight champion, able to outstrike his opponents by using his range and strength to shrug off fighters. Fighter B is current welterweight champion Georges St. Pierre, able to use his elite calibure wrestling skills to hold down opponents and be active enough for the fight not to be stood up. While it is more of the opponents fault for not having the wrestling ability to compete with GSP's, it is GSP's fault that he doesn't use that ability to really, really impress the likes to actually be proclaimed the best p4p fighter in the world. I really like Georges, I do, super cool guy, but I'm sorry, he is not a more complete fighter then Fedor, Anderson Silva, BJ Penn, and depending on how his next fight goes, Jose Aldo.
 

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You're going to get a lot of hate for this (I think) but I totally agree. Sure GSP is champ and has defeated some big names and dominated people, it's been for 5 rounds. At some point you've got to wonder, is going to start KO'ing people again or making them tap? Sure Hardy was not going to tap but why not try a submission where the guy goes to sleep.

Just sayin'.
 

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I had know idea who fighter A was until you mentioned wearing his title in public and lame sideburns.

GSP is as 'complete' as BJ or Silva, its just that his dominant area is the 'in between' section of MMA, guaranteeing him dominant positions but not knockouts (like Silva's MT), or submissions (like BJ). Neither of those guys wrestling is that great, while GSPs BJJ or standup isn't prodigal, but is very good. So he is as 'well-rounded' as them, in the sense nobody can outwrestle him, like nobody can outstrike or outgrapple Penn. It isn't like either of these two guys play into their opponents strengths either.

As for comparison with Sylvia. Sylvia was never as dominant as GSP, and didn't face the same level of competition IMO. Also GSP takedown >>>>>> Sylvia Jab anyday of the week.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Okay, no, he isn't.

Actually, Sylvia was equally as dominant. 5 round fight, won nearly every single round by using that one particular skill.

They are the same fighter in this regard. Like I said before, it's politics.
 

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Yeah I always put GSP at the tail end of the clear p4p list because all the other guys are killers who can finish their opponents at any time. GSP is probably the best technical fighter and athlete out of the list though just not a killer. The WW division also stinks BJ is the best person he has fought and that is a 155er moving up in weight. Him ducking Andy doesn't really help his case either.
 

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Okay, no, he isn't.

Actually, Sylvia was equally as dominant. 5 round fight, won nearly every single round by using that one particular skill.

They are the same fighter in this regard. Like I said before, it's politics.
ummm..noo.....

I dont know what you are trying to do...but I am going to guess its to start a heated discussion. Slyvia was NEVER dominant, The HWs of today would DESTROY him, while GSP would destroy every WW of previous years.

The only big name hes really beat was Arlovski, He was the champion of the HW division when it was the weakest it has ever been in UFC history. Do you remember how Randy totally had his way with him?? pfft... this whole topic is a joke, I am not even going to discuss it further.
 

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As boring as I find wrestlers to watch, one has to admit how dominant a good wrestler is in MMA. Look at Fitch and GSP from last night. Boring as hell at times but if it aint broke...
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
ummm..noo.....

I dont know what you are trying to do...but I am going to guess its to start a heated discussion. Slyvia was NEVER dominant, The HWs of today would DESTROY him, while GSP would destroy every WW of previous years.

The only big name hes really beat was Arlovski, He was the champion of the HW division when it was the weakest it has ever been in UFC history. Do you remember how Randy totally had his way with him?? pfft... this whole topic is a joke, I am not even going to discuss it further.
And now you're playing into the Majority thoughts on fighter A/B opponents portion of this thread. Nice.

I'm glad that when you're not missing the point of this thread, you're playing into one of the categories. Makes my argument easier so thanks.
 

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I had know idea who fighter A was until you mentioned wearing his title in public and lame sideburns.

GSP is as 'complete' as BJ or Silva, its just that his dominant area is the 'in between' section of MMA, guaranteeing him dominant positions but not knockouts (like Silva's MT), or submissions (like BJ). Neither of those guys wrestling is that great, while GSPs BJJ or standup isn't prodigal, but is very good. So he is as 'well-rounded' as them, in the sense nobody can outwrestle him, like nobody can outstrike or outgrapple Penn. It isn't like either of these two guys play into their opponents strengths either.

As for comparison with Sylvia. Sylvia was never as dominant as GSP, and didn't face the same level of competition IMO. Also GSP takedown >>>>>> Sylvia Jab anyday of the week.
Agree with this. GSP's striking was ever bit that of Dan's and his BJJ is pretty damn good.

But I do like BJ and Anderson more just for the fact they finish fights. GSP is a wrestler, no excuse not to finish. I have seen plenty of wrestler finishers. Tito, Hughes, Lesnar looking that way, Fedor I think qualifies...

No excuse not to finish, even though those sub would have finished most guys at that point. GSP just won't go down as a true legend of the sport. Not really a revered man is what I'm looking at if he keeps fighting like this. One of the best ever? Sure, but just doesn't have that legend mystic. I hope if he ends up fighting Kos again he should try and beat him on the feet, I don't care who the better wrestler is really. He should win it on the feet in that one, hopefully.

To say the least GSP plays it the safest of any of the P4P best. But the name of the game is to win.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I agree completely that the name of the game is to win. However, when you're that much above the majority of your opponents in one area of MMA, I expect you to show real dominance, and not safe dominance.
 

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I like big Tim :-( and miss him in the ufc

but yeah I dont see what all the complaints are with the way GSP fights, even if he does not finish fights he is constantly working. he actually would have finished almost any other fighter with those two in deep submission attempts during the fight with hardy.

I really dont care if a fighter finishes a fight as long as during that fight they are constantly working and making it exciting for the 3 to 5 rounds. Fans today I dont get all anyone wants to see anymore it devastating knockouts, in which I say they should just go watch K-1
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
That's the thing, he "constantly works" to the bare minimum. His wrestling is so dominant that he can afford to get by the bare minimum because he looks active. He doesn't use his dominant wrestling to be the best in the world. He uses it to get by. I don't like that. Big Tim, same way.
 

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Alex, I totally agree with MOST of what you're saying. I would've used the Fitch/GSP comparison though. Fitch gets SO MUCH hate for just being a "wet blanket" when he isn't. Dude is JUST as active, if not more, than GSP on the ground. Compare GSPs fights with Fitch and Alves to Fitch's fights with Diego, Saunders and Pierce. GSP is severely starting to go to the safe, LnP esque roll and everyone is loving on him for it. We all know GSP has a very under/overated (people do both, A LOT) stand up game (his game is so good because everyone worries about everything else and he's so good at timing his switching of them), but I agree with you that he never uses it to his full potential. I mean, GSP the striker (pre-Hughes II) was wrecking face left and right. Now he's content to just grind out decisions to preserve his legacy...

Before I end this: Yes, I understand that the safest way to win a fight is the best, but what I'm saying is Fitch gets a fuckton of hate for it and everyone praises GSP, it's sort of a double standard and it's really, really annoying.
 

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Good post.

Look at the ground and pound of someone like Jon Jones.. GSP is in the position for 25 minutes and has the capability to crush people with similar viciousness.

He chooses not to.

I dont understand how people justify him with pound for pound status. Hes not doing anything near what Penn or Anderson are doing to their opponents.
 

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Fighter B's competition is way better. Way, way better. The reason that Fighter B is more highly regarded than fighter A (besides the personality reasons) is that Fighter B can exercise his gameplan even against top-notch competition. When Fighter A started fighting guys tougher than, say, Gan McGee, he started to lose.

Fighter A's "one dimension" was slow and clumsy. Fighter B's "one dimension" is explosive and dynamic--no "lay and pray" like Couture or Henderson.

Fighter A tested positive for steroids.

Yes, both fighters play relatively safe, but that's where the similarities end.
 

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Fighter B's competition is way better. Way, way better. The reason that Fighter B is more highly regarded than fighter A (besides the personality reasons) is that Fighter B can exercise his gameplan even against top-notch competition. When Fighter A started fighting guys tougher than, say, Gan McGee, he started to lose.

Fighter A's "one dimension" was slow and clumsy. Fighter B's "one dimension" is explosive and dynamic--no "lay and pray" like Couture or Henderson.

Fighter A tested positive for steroids.

Yes, both fighters play relatively safe, but that's where the similarities end.
WHOA


Couture LnPs and GSP doesn't? I don't think you have your "facts" straight here, sir.
 

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Partially. Fact is Randy uses his clinch game more than his wrestling nowadays and when he DOES take dudes to the ground he at least gets half guard, something we hadn't seen from Pierre in a long time until this fight and his coaches were even telling him NOT to. When Randy gets half guard he pounds on faces until the other guy breaks. When GSP gets a takedown he does enough to not get stood up.
 

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Georges doesn't LnP, I mean not intently. Did you hear his corner last night? They WANTED him to stay in the guard and try to patter shots. THATS more like FITCH. But Georges wasn't listening to them. Every second of the ground fight Georges was trying to improve his position or go for a sub. He failed.

But that isn't lay and pray, that's failing to finish. Compare this to Fitch's 3 rounds with Saunders, GSP managed a couple mounts, a couple full hooks, and 2 DEEP submission attempts. I don't know what you call that, but it isn't lay and pray, its being active from the top.

I think Fitch is more intent to land shots and grind his opponents out. He does try to get better position but hes not as good on the ground GSP in terms of BJJ. Also, his standup isn't as technically sound, nor his takedowns as explosive.

Now lets talk about Sylvia's accolades. He had his zenith when the HW division was notoriously weak. His highest quality wins were against Andrei Arlovski, Brandon Vera, Jeff Monson, and Ricco Rodriguez.

GSP's wins have come against the likes of Hughes, Penn, Fitch, Alves, Koscheck, Sherk.

The difference between Sylvia and GSP in terms of opponents and results is that when faced with the elite of their division, Sylvia has lost and GSP has won.
 
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