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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I really wanted Frank to win last night, not because I am a huge fan, but because I was hoping his new size might help him submit Lesnar again and teach him a bit of humility. To me, Lesnar's style is no style. Ok, sure, there is his wrestling, but everything else just looks like a bully pounding someone. Hey, it works, but it just doesn't inspire me or make me think he is a great fighter. To me he is big, thats it.

It is starting to seem that men the size of Lesnar and Carwin are too big, too strong and too direct in their approach for BJJ to work. Could Mir have gone the ground with Carwin and submitted him or would the fight have ended up the same way with Mir on his back under a hail of punches? Probably the latter. I think Mir was more than likely hoping to KO Carwin in preparation for his Lesnar bout.

The sad reality, IMO, is that this new breed of super heavyweights is going to be all wrestling, punching and little else. Not my cup of tea as I really like technique. Seems that size/brute strength may have finally defeated having an arsenal of techniques/submissions. Wrestling is definitely a great skill, but I find pinning opponents to the cage and spastic (Lesnar) GNP rather boring.

I really like Cain's wrestling technique, but I am beginning to doubt that it will work on Lesnar or Carwin due to his size. Dos Santos, I can't see him beating either (well, maybe Carwin if it turned into a punch up). If it goes to the ground I doubt he could pull a submission.

A super heavy division is needed or else all we are going to see is pumped up heavies trying to hang with guys Brock's size.
 

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Wrestling is the strongest point to start MMA. If you dont like Lesnar's "style", How could you like half the UFC roster.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Wrestling is the strongest point to start MMA. If you dont like Lesnar's "style", How could you like half the UFC roster.
I made reference to what I disliked about it in my post. I find him spastic and a bully. There is nothing graceful in his style. He is in essence a bully. There are far more wrestlers, like Cain, who I enjoy watching.
 

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Your whole premise that big wrestlers are beating BJJ is wrong. If a pure wrestler came in against a BJJ guy there is a good chance he would lose, much like Lesnar did the first time by doing something as simple as leaving a leg out. The problem for guys like Mir and Maia is that they are facing wrestlers who also practice BJJ and use their knowledge of it and wrestling to neutralize a pure BJJ guy. It is MMA, and the wrestlers seem to be the only ones smart enough to really expand their ground game beyond how to stop an RNC.
 

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"Big bully" guys like Lesnar and Carwin train in BJJ, too. They know enough to be cognizant of potential sub attmepts while using their own strengths to their advantage.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Your whole premise that big wrestlers are beating BJJ is wrong.
Really, please give me some examples to the contrary. Frank has been dusted twice now by wrestlers. The first fight with Lesnar (and I hate to agree with Lesnar), Mir got lucky. Cain also destroyed Nog. These new heavies are just so brutal and fast that the BJJ guys don't seem to have time to even set up. Maybe its just Mir. He is a bit lacadasical.

Junior Dos Santos is the only BJJ guy with a chance, but I don't see him winning by relying on BJJ. I'd also like to see him get a few more fights before a title shot. He still seems a bit young. He is impressive, but something seems missing still.

I love BJJ, but I can see the bigger guys moving away from it and focusing more on wrestling and striking to compete. I'd love to see Lesnar get arm barred, rear naked choked, triangled, etc, but it just doesn't seem possible at the moment.
 

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"dw I think JDS will destroy Carwin"
No way.

Mr Sparkle, this isn't a dojo. It's a cage. It doesn't matter if a guy has a style at all if he's handing out beatdowns. I wish we were still under the old UFC rules.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
"Big bully" guys like Lesnar and Carwin train in BJJ, too. They know enough to be cognizant of potential sub attmepts while using their own strengths to their advantage.
It is just such a full on assault that all subtly is lost. I am sure that they are conscious of BJJ when training but their negation of it seem more like pure brutality. The style for their size works, have to give it that, but it Brock's case it is just plain ugly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
"dw I think JDS will destroy Carwin"
No way.

Mr Sparkle, this isn't a dojo. It's a cage. It doesn't matter if a guy has a style at all if he's handing out beatdowns. I wish we were still under the old UFC rules.
For sure...as I have said numerous times: it works and they win.
 

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Really, please give me some examples to the contrary.
How about the fact that Lesnar went out and hired the best BJJ coach he could focus on it. Then watch the rematch between Mir and Lesnar and notice how Lesnar transitions positions like a BJJ guy and not spinning like a wrestler, something he did against Mir the first time and Herring.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
How about the fact that Lesnar went out and hired the best BJJ coach he could focus on it. Then watch the rematch between Mir and Lesnar and notice how Lesnar transitions positions like a BJJ guy and not spinning like a wrestler, something he did against Mir the first time and Herring.
That doesn't change the fact that he is still essentially a wrestler and he and Carwin are continuing to win. Negating BJJ does not make you a BJJ practitioner. You are not about to see Brock pull guard or Carwin go for a kimura - god forbid if anyone tried that on them now though.

I will look again at the videos as I am curious about the spinning.
 

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I really wanted Frank to win last night, not because I am a huge fan, but because I was hoping his new size might help him submit Lesnar again and teach him a bit of humility. To me, Lesnar's style is no style. Ok, sure, there is his wrestling, but everything else just looks like a bully pounding someone. Hey, it works, but it just doesn't inspire me or make me think he is a great fighter. To me he is big, thats it.

It is starting to seem that men the size of Lesnar and Carwin are too big, too strong and too direct in their approach for BJJ to work. Could Mir have gone the ground with Carwin and submitted him or would the fight have ended up the same way with Mir on his back under a hail of punches? Probably the latter. I think Mir was more than likely hoping to KO Carwin in preparation for his Lesnar bout.

The sad reality, IMO, is that this new breed of super heavyweights is going to be all wrestling, punching and little else. Not my cup of tea as I really like technique. Seems that size/brute strength may have finally defeated having an arsenal of techniques/submissions. Wrestling is definitely a great skill, but I find pinning opponents to the cage and spastic (Lesnar) GNP rather boring.

I really like Cain's wrestling technique, but I am beginning to doubt that it will work on Lesnar or Carwin due to his size. Dos Santos, I can't see him beating either (well, maybe Carwin if it turned into a punch up). If it goes to the ground I doubt he could pull a submission.

A super heavy division is needed or else all we are going to see is pumped up heavies trying to hang with guys Brock's size.
This entire question is a fallacy based on the idea that BJJ has to be about bottom game and passivity. Not only does BJJ have a top game (what do you think the guy on top is doing in a BJJ practice?) all the top-level fighters train BJJ anyway because they need BJJ experience just to avoid being subbed while they work their primary offense. We may not see Brock armbarring anyone but he had to train plenty of BJJ to be competitive in the UFC like he is today.

Now, if we shift the topic to the death of the pure BJJ player, that happened a long time ago, and probably was finally driven home in Hughes vs Gracie. You cannot be a pure anything in MMA today.
 

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blah dont wanna rile up the bjj guys.

bjj is great but its only relivent for the HWs to learn as a form of sub defense. its often a waste of good position going for subs against guys who know how to defend them and are big strong wrestlers.
 

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There have been men in the UFC who are just as big and just as strong as Brock Lesnar or Shane Carwin, but they didn't enjoy the same kind of success because they didn't have their ability, their training or their technique.

It may look like it's all brute force, but it isn't.
 

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I somewhat agree with the thread starter. It seems like the combination of wrestling, a little bit of sub defense and extreme size and strength like Carwin and Brock have is almost unbeatable. I think Mir is more technical that Carwin and Brock in everything except wrestling, but He just got bullied by both of them. It just seems too hard for a guy who is not built like Carwin or Brock to beat them. We will see though. They haven't fought enough guys yet for us to know really. I'm very curious to see how Cain, Fedor, and JDS would do against them.
 

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I somewhat agree with the thread starter. It seems like the combination of wrestling, a little bit of sub defense and extreme size and strength like Carwin and Brock have is almost unbeatable. I think Mir is more technical that Carwin and Brock in everything except wrestling, but He just got bullied by both of them. It just seems too hard for a guy who is not built like Carwin or Brock to beat them. We will see though. They haven't fought enough guys yet for us to know really. I'm very curious to see how Cain, Fedor, and JDS would do against them.
A competent defense is not "a little bit". That's like saying Liddell only had a little bit of wrestling because he only really used the sprawl component during his reign.

I can promise you that Brock and Carwin have and do train sub defense on the regular.
 

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Well fighters, including Carwin/Lesnar, are becoming more well-rounded, simple as that I believe.
 

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Really, please give me some examples to the contrary. Frank has been dusted twice now by wrestlers. The first fight with Lesnar (and I hate to agree with Lesnar), Mir got lucky. Cain also destroyed Nog. These new heavies are just so brutal and fast that the BJJ guys don't seem to have time to even set up. Maybe its just Mir. He is a bit lacadasical.

Junior Dos Santos is the only BJJ guy with a chance, but I don't see him winning by relying on BJJ. I'd also like to see him get a few more fights before a title shot. He still seems a bit young. He is impressive, but something seems missing still.

I love BJJ, but I can see the bigger guys moving away from it and focusing more on wrestling and striking to compete. I'd love to see Lesnar get arm barred, rear naked choked, triangled, etc, but it just doesn't seem possible at the moment.
How is that relevant in a Wrestling vs BJJ thread ?
 

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The Detective
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A competent defense is not "a little bit". That's like saying Liddell only had a little bit of wrestling because he only really used the sprawl component during his reign.

I can promise you that Brock and Carwin have and do train sub defense on the regular.
Ya a little was probably the wrong thing to say. I should have said just enough to not get subbed.
 
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