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What was up with Herb Dean during the Ellenberger vs Howard match. Couple of quick stand ups and constantly harping on Ellenberger to "work". I'm all for standing up lay n' prays, but Ellenberger appeared to be "working"... on Howard's face.

Anybody else catch this?

I pretty much hold Herb as the standard by which other refs are judged so it caught me off guard a bit.
 

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What was up with Herb Dean during the Ellenberger vs Howard match. Couple of quick stand ups and constantly harping on Ellenberger to "work". I'm all for standing up lay n' prays, but Ellenberger appeared to be "working"... on Howard's face.

Anybody else catch this?

I pretty much hold Herb as the standard by which other refs are judged so it caught me off guard a bit.

I seen that also, was wondering wtf.. jack seemed to be moving and trying to get better position plus doing some pretty decent damage.. Maybe it was just a off night for Mr.Dean
 

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I thought it was good that he did that, while Ellenberger did land a few big shots he wasn't constantly working. I hate to see wrestlers try to avoid standing up by taking guys down and just hanging out in guard. Personally I think that all refs should do exactly what Herb did last night. If you want to take a guy down and go try to finish the fight like say Jon Jones or Brock Lesnar I think thats awesome. Or even GSP who doesn't usually finish fights he is atleast always working G'N'P and passing to more dominant positions. But I don't think guys should be allowed to hang out on the ground especially in guard and throw a big punch every once in a while.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I thought it was good that he did that, while Ellenberger did land a few big shots he wasn't constantly working. I hate to see wrestlers try to avoid standing up by taking guys down and just hanging out in guard. Personally I think that all refs should do exactly what Herb did last night. If you want to take a guy down and go try to finish the fight like say Jon Jones or Brock Lesnar I think thats awesome. Or even GSP who doesn't usually finish fights he is atleast always working G'N'P and passing to more dominant positions. But I don't think guys should be allowed to hang out on the ground especially in guard and throw a big punch every once in a while.
I agree with your general premise, but I'll just agree to disagree with the part about Ellenberger not working. Howard did seem to be doing a good job of tying him up, so that may have had something to do with it... I dunno. But I would hardly say Ellenberger was LnP'ing Howard as evidenced by Howard's pancake face.

And to Herb's credit, I thought his stoppage in the Jones fight was timely and appropriate.
 

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It's rare, but I think Herb was letting the ridiculous crowd skew his judgement. Every time Jake took the fight to the ground, pockets of fans were booing within ten seconds, which in turn infected the remainder of the crowd. It's awful to hear, especially when Jake was actively working and obviously landing damaging blows. Live crowds are really beginning to effect the product, and not for the better... trying to watch someone's ground game unfold to a chorus of boos is unbelievably annoying, and now, we're seeing it influencing referees. I really wish these drunken and ill informed numbskulls would stick to boxing or professional wrestling, as opposed to ruining the sport for those of us who actually want to see elements of wrestling and BJJ tossed in.
 

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The Bearded One
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Herb dean was not himself last night. He was nervous and anxious. Im all about quick stand up´s for low active gnp but that was just being premature.
I also think that an extra 3 or 5 secs before him stoping the Bones fight would ge good for making sure Vlad was not getting away from the cruxifice.

My guess is that he was on coke. :thumb02:
 

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I think more of this needs to happen, While I love GnP, I want guys to constantly move and get better positions. He landed a few good shots(eye damage) but most of them were weak overhand shots from full guard.

I hate it when wrestlers just take a opponent down and do the bare minimum to keep it from standing, that is what Ellenberger was trying to do in my eyes. You can hate on GSP all you want for not finishing fights, but he always improve his position and is constantly hitting you, EXCEPT for the Dan Hardy fight. ;)
 

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Super Ultra Great Delicious Wonderful
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He didn't have any quick standups in that fight. There is nothing wrong with him telling them to work when no real strikes are thrown or attempts at passing are made for 10-15 seconds. He wasn't doing it while Jake was active either. He would tell him to work and then he would throw one elbow and go back to laying on him for 10 seconds before Herb told him to work again. The condition of Howards eye doesn't have anything to do with how active Jake was either that can happen off of one damaging strike.
 

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It's rare, but I think Herb was letting the ridiculous crowd skew his judgement. Every time Jake took the fight to the ground, pockets of fans were booing within ten seconds, which in turn infected the remainder of the crowd. It's awful to hear, especially when Jake was actively working and obviously landing damaging blows. Live crowds are really beginning to effect the product, and not for the better... trying to watch someone's ground game unfold to a chorus of boos is unbelievably annoying, and now, we're seeing it influencing referees. I really wish these drunken and ill informed numbskulls would stick to boxing or professional wrestling, as opposed to ruining the sport for those of us who actually want to see elements of wrestling and BJJ tossed in.
My thoughts summed up perfectly. Well said.
 

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It's rare, but I think Herb was letting the ridiculous crowd skew his judgement. Every time Jake took the fight to the ground, pockets of fans were booing within ten seconds, which in turn infected the remainder of the crowd. It's awful to hear, especially when Jake was actively working and obviously landing damaging blows. Live crowds are really beginning to effect the product, and not for the better... trying to watch someone's ground game unfold to a chorus of boos is unbelievably annoying, and now, we're seeing it influencing referees. I really wish these drunken and ill informed numbskulls would stick to boxing or professional wrestling, as opposed to ruining the sport for those of us who actually want to see elements of wrestling and BJJ tossed in.
I've said 32923847239847324347 times, if a relative n00b to grappling can attempt to understand and appreciate the ground game (even with a few drinks in me) it's not asking too much to expect these drunk assholes to do so.

The fact that I roll 2-3x a week has nothing to do with it. You don't hear soccer fans booing if the ball is just getting passed around and nobody's going for a killer goal kick, do you?

I'd love it if security treated fans who boo the second a fight goes to the ground as disorderly, and accordingly told them to STFU.
 

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The Bearded One
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The fact that I roll 2-3x a week has nothing to do with it. You don't hear soccer fans booing if the ball is just getting passed around and nobody's going for a killer goal kick, do you?
You do hear the boing in soccer when there´s "anti-game" (that´s the expression used in soccer).

But then again, most of the people that goes for a stadium to watch a soccer game actually understand the game, so i´t´s justified.

Not like in mma, where there´s many people just looking for the next Forrest-Bonnar brawl not really being able to apreciate the beauty of the sport.
 

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i agree with mr legkick if you want to the fight on the ground you have to move not just lay. I mean look at the Mark Muñoz vs. Yushin Okami fight munoz was just holdong on to okamis single leg for minutes at a time yet the ref never stood them up ?!? what a waste of half the fight.
 

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Ellenberger was doing more damage than Mr Dean was giving him, but it's true that Ellenberger made zero attempt to improve his position the entire night. If all you do is pepper your opponent with low-torque looping punches in the guard for 15 minutes that's basically a forgone conclusion the fight will end up a decision.
 

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What was up with Herb Dean during the Ellenberger vs Howard match. Couple of quick stand ups and constantly harping on Ellenberger to "work". I'm all for standing up lay n' prays, but Ellenberger appeared to be "working"... on Howard's face.

Anybody else catch this?

I pretty much hold Herb as the standard by which other refs are judged so it caught me off guard a bit.
Completely agree. I made a thread about it lastnight but some moron deleted it along with the rest of the Howard/Ellenberger thread.

My assumption is the refs have been told, probably by Dana, to keep the action going on free cards to entice new watchers into believing all fights are fast paced assaults.

Some guys inflict alot of damage from their opponents guards, and Ellenberger was working away at Howard, not just laying and praying. I mean, Tito is renowned for his GnP from his opponents guard, and he isnt relentless in it, he'll rest for a period, then work, rest, work. Its sensible that way. Poor judgement from Herb in my opinion.

You do hear the boing in soccer when there´s "anti-game" (that´s the expression used in soccer).

But then again, most of the people that goes for a stadium to watch a soccer game actually understand the game, so i´t´s justified.

Not like in mma, where there´s many people just looking for the next Forrest-Bonnar brawl not really being able to apreciate the beauty of the sport.
The only time football fans boo is usually when the opposition is keeping possession and theyre p!ssed off that their team isnt winning. But you'll also notice that sometimes you'll get the other members of the crowd shouting "OLE!" with every pass.

The crowd lasnight were cheering the takedown, and the booing after maybe 15 seconds of the fight being on the ground. The guys who boo p!ss me off, if they want to see standup wars they can phuck off to a boxing match and boo all they like. The ground game is just as exciting, if not more so, than the stand up game.
 

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I'm pretty sure Herb did that because he wanted to get the eye checked out again, if he felt that Ellenberger wasn't doing significant damage at the time and wasn't really passing, and felt that the fight was pretty much over due to the swelling (Herb is smart and knew the fight would probably be stopped), then I see no reason not to.
 

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I've said 32923847239847324347 times, if a relative n00b to grappling can attempt to understand and appreciate the ground game (even with a few drinks in me) it's not asking too much to expect these drunk assholes to do so.

The fact that I roll 2-3x a week has nothing to do with it. You don't hear soccer fans booing if the ball is just getting passed around and nobody's going for a killer goal kick, do you?

I'd love it if security treated fans who boo the second a fight goes to the ground as disorderly, and accordingly told them to STFU.
Had there been some sub attempts, passing of the guard and perhaps some counters from Doomsday on the ground, you would have heard ohhhhh's and ahhhhh's and cheers. Fact is fans are tired of GnP'ers for the most part.
 

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Completely agree. I made a thread about it lastnight but some moron deleted it along with the rest of the Howard/Ellenberger thread.

My assumption is the refs have been told, probably by Dana, to keep the action going on free cards to entice new watchers into believing all fights are fast paced assaults.
No, Dana has no say in what the referees do. He said in an interview a few months back that he's barely spoken to Herb Dean at all. He doesn't give the referees any instruction what so ever, they're completely controlled by the Athletic commission.
 

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It's rare, but I think Herb was letting the ridiculous crowd skew his judgement. Every time Jake took the fight to the ground, pockets of fans were booing within ten seconds, which in turn infected the remainder of the crowd. It's awful to hear, especially when Jake was actively working and obviously landing damaging blows. Live crowds are really beginning to effect the product, and not for the better... trying to watch someone's ground game unfold to a chorus of boos is unbelievably annoying, and now, we're seeing it influencing referees. I really wish these drunken and ill informed numbskulls would stick to boxing or professional wrestling, as opposed to ruining the sport for those of us who actually want to see elements of wrestling and BJJ tossed in.
Crowds absolutely influence ref decisions. I remember watching a fight, can't remember, think it was Bellator or SF I can't remember but these guys were fighting and I didn't have much of a problem but the crowd was booing and the commentator said something like "Oh the crowd is starting to come a little restless, don't be surprised to see a stand up"...Crowd got louder 2 seconds after that

"BOO!!!"

"Stop!"

"He must have heard you..."

Literally seconds after the exchange...
 

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You don't hear soccer fans booing if the ball is just getting passed around and nobody's going for a killer goal kick, do you?
Funny that you use this analogy because I DO boo when soccer teams just pass the ball back n forth (especially at the end of a game when they clearly won - UGANDA). However, that's why I'm not a soccer fan and that's why I very seldom watch soccer. I certainly wouldn't pay money to go to a soccer event. I accept that passing the ball is more frequent than a team being aggressive. However, that's why I don't enjoy it and (therefore) don't watch it.
 

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I thought the stand ups were a tad quick, especially for herb. At the same time I didn't think they were too unjustified. The referee's always say "improve your position" and ellenberger was just hangig out in guard. I personally found his GnP quite boring. A couple good shots, and about 3 -4 solid elbow strikes. The damage to howards eye could have been from one blow.
 
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