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True Grappler
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Discussion Starter #1
In the UFC they go a long way to seperate weight classes and put alot of emphasis on the weighins. Does weight really matter so much that they need to seperate it? Does losing to much weight endanger a fighter's ability to fight as well as they should? Just looking for opinions.
 

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You could go many different ways with this question. Define losing weight. Cutting weight before a fight? or gradually slimming down for different classes(ex. joe Riggs)?
Cutting weight can definitely affect you before a fight if you cannot rehydrate yourself properly before stepping in the cage. Is this what you are wanting to talk about?
 

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True Grappler
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Discussion Starter #3
Yeah, what i was really wondering about was pretty broad. I agree with you about cutting alot of weight prefight, but i was also curious if people think that size, on the whole, is a really big factor for fighters when it comes down to matchups. I don't really mean like 3 or 4 pounds, i mean like The Maniac v. the Iceman or Arlovski v. Franklin.

I'd also be interested to test the waters and see how those matchups work out.
 

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To me it comes down to skill. Sometimes it doesn't matter how big the guy is your fighting, if he can't fight and has no skill, then you should win. In the 2nd UFC, when the weight classes were open, they had a sumo wrestler fighting a kickboxer and the sumo guy got knocked out after 3 punches. I'm no MMA fighter and nor do I want to be one but I've been in fights with people bigger and smaller than me and sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. It comes down to skill and who wants it more.
 

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True Grappler
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Discussion Starter #5
I agree with you.
But the bit that alot of people have a problem with is that all of these guys are talented and there are only a few of the lighter guys if who can fight heavier guys. I think that UFC 2 had some great open-weight fights but i think if you put that boxer in a cage with Tim Silvia, i think he'd lose.
The reason why they stopped the open weight fights is so that the matchups would be "fair" but i agree with you. I'd like to be able to turn on UFC and watch Silvia v. Liddell.
I hope that it'll happen soon.
 

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Always Has Been, Always Will Be...
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Well, I guess that it would be better if maybe people limited how much weight could be inbetween them? They should set up fights up one weight class, and down one weight class. That would make things interesting. Also maybe they should lengthen the rounds ?
 

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USMCgrappler said:
Honestly...isn't this the point of the first UFCs? Even in UFC 7 Marco Ruas proved size does not matter.

Again, the problem today is that NONE of the fighters are disciplined enough to fight too much above their class, and the time limited rounds force an aggressive fight. $$$$$

So in todays UFC, you NEED weight classes.

It is unfortunate that what was proven in the past has been lost, not because the truth is different, but because the system of proving what does/does not work has been tainted/rigged.
Thank you, I needed a good laugh today.
 

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CopperShark said:
Well, I guess that it would be better if maybe people limited how much weight could be inbetween them? They should set up fights up one weight class, and down one weight class. That would make things interesting. Also maybe they should lengthen the rounds ?
They really can't do too much with lengthening the rounds cause of being on PPV. They have only so much time to be on the air. Imagine no time limits, your watching a great fight and all of a sudden it cuts off, cause your out of air time. I would be pissed. I would like to see fighters fight one weight class up or below them, that would be interesting.
 

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Outta My Head
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Even though this betrays all confidence I have in my short frame, size definitely matters; especially at the higher level of competition. When you have a world class lightweight going against a heavyweight with no credentials what-so-ever, then if the HW gets beaten it proves that the smaller man was a better fighter. However, if you have a World Class LW against a World Class HW or LHW, then size definitely plays a factor.

Let's put it this way: In his 3rd ever MMA fight Bob Sapp was pitted against the (then) Pride HW Champ Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira. Nogueira is no small man at 230lbs, but being pitted against the 350lbs monster that Bob Sapp is he had more than his hands full. Nogueira pulled the win on a gassed Sapp with a beautifully executed arm bar, but he was rushed to the hospital right after the fight. In this example, all Sapp had going for him was a huge weight/size advantage. What if Sapp had a much larger skill set or better cardio?

I'll touch on the dropping weight, jumping weight classes things in a sec. Work beckons!
 

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True Grappler
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Discussion Starter #10
Onganju said:
Let's put it this way: In his 3rd ever MMA fight Bob Sapp was pitted against the (then) Pride HW Champ Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira. Nogueira is no small man at 230lbs, but being pitted against the 350lbs monster that Bob Sapp is he had more than his hands full. Nogueira pulled the win on a gassed Sapp with a beautifully executed arm bar, but he was rushed to the hospital right after the fight. In this example, all Sapp had going for him was a huge weight/size advantage. What if Sapp had a much larger skill set or better cardio?
The question is "What if sapp had a better skill set or better cardio?" and the answer is no. Sapp had a "good" skill set and nog is a pride heavy weight, which means that he had the BEST skill set. Nog and Gracie are both great fighters and the fact that he was rushed to the hospital after the fight shows a level of commitment that missing now in alot of MMA formats.

Alot of guys are trying to protect themselves and i, personally, would like to see what happens if that's not an option. What happens if matt hughes is giving up 100+ lbs to Tim sylvia? He has to fight three or four times as hard just to keep from getting knocked out. I want to see the dominant fighters like Hughes and Franklin fight the top heavyweights like sylvia and arlovski. Maybe they get killed and maybe not, but it'd be fun to watch.

That's my pitch.
 

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Outta My Head
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IronMan said:
The question is "What if sapp had a better skill set or better cardio?" and the answer is no. Sapp had a "good" skill set and nog is a pride heavy weight, which means that he had the BEST skill set. Nog and Gracie are both great fighters and the fact that he was rushed to the hospital after the fight shows a level of commitment that missing now in alot of MMA formats.

... I want to see the dominant fighters like Hughes and Franklin fight the top heavyweights like sylvia and arlovski. Maybe they get killed and maybe not, but it'd be fun to watch.

That's my pitch.
As much as I like watching any Bob Sapp train wreck, I'd have to state at that time he had NO skill set at all. The original post asks if Size matters, with my example I'm pointing out that it does. The only thing that Sapp has going for him as a fighter is his Size and Strength. The fact that Nog got rushed to the hospital attests to the fact that he was getting mauled, and ended up literally fighting for his life. If Bob Sapp was the same size as Nog, I doubt he'd be able to: 1) Stop a takedown by up-ending the fighter and dropping him on his head. 2) Stop a Triangle/armbar by lifting muscling him up and slamming him(this is Nog's bread 'n' butter sub combo). 3) Stuff a kneebar by simply dropping all his weight down on him. The fact that Nog won is definitely a testament to his skill. The fact that Sapp was able to hurt him so badly is a testament to his physical size.

I'd like to see what the World Class/Champs of lighter weight classes could do against those in the HW and LHW classes out of curiosity. But just from sheer concern for these fighters well-being, I'd rather not. Just imagine the type of record Randy Couture would have if he was always fighting at 195, or Kazushi Sakuraba if he wasn't fighting opponents who were 25lbs larger than him on average.

Food for thought isn't it?

On the subject of cutting weight, I believe it's part of the game now. With that in mind, cutting too much weight can be really bad. When guys have to go back to hospital lobbies to IV up and re-hydrate after the weigh-in, something is wrong. Stripping your body of that much water is just damaging by itself. Jumping between weight classes is also real risky for a lot of MMA fighters. The reason being is that they will usually jump between weight classes (up or down) within a matter of months in order to make fights. Most boxers will do so gradually over time.

I think that once a fighter is able to find a comfortable weight for them to fight at, they should stick to it as long as they can. Once they start having trouble making weight, then they can start moving up. But doing the elevator rise/drop in weight doesn't end up paying off for fighters. See Joe Riggs, or BJ Penn as examples.
 

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WOW lots of excelelnt posts and comments here I need to throw in my two cents...

Weight and size do and do not matter. yea I know that is a very canceling statment and as previously stated I think alot of it comes down to skill.

To borrow a scene from a bruce lee movie, Game of Death, Bruce and Kareem have similiar body types just Kareem was like 3 feet taller then bruce and I mean they have strong lean muscle. At first Kareems height was an advantage, but after bruces character learns to overcome the height difference he can use it against him ( hope I do not have to explain that) in this case the fighters were about equally skilled.
now lets say same two fighters except now Kareem has about say 150 pounds more. being the fighter he is portraying with that skill level were talking a monster here. If the fight were to start the same way Bruces character more then likely would not have lasted long enough to figure out how to use the height of his opponent against him.

So we can see here two fighters with near equal skills, size and strength can be what tips the scales into favor of one. Now when the fihters have a huge difference in skill level the smaller fighter if the more skilled can more easily over come the weight/height advantage. look at the previous fights in the same movie ( and yes I knows its a movie but it had some world class martial artists in it and is just being used as a reference) they have more equally sized fighters but you can see how skill is the ultimate deciding factor.

and for the record you can see some of bruce's grappling skills in that fight with Kareem ( not much but a taste)

Ok so that was more like a $1.25 not 2 cents but I think It made sense.
 

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I believe its skill not size. gracie proved that years ago fighting guys 50-80lbs heavier. I dont presume anyone a wimp no matter how goofy they look because there are some really goofy looking people out there that have serious skills.

from personal experience with a very small vietnamese hapkido master, who you would think couldnt even lift a 45lb bench bar let alone with weights added to it, I can say that me and another guy both tried attacking him with kicks and punches at the same time and we couldnt even touch him. if someone small is skilled they can put the hurt on anyone big or small, especially with pressure points and they can strike much harder than expected too.
 

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that would be cool... kinda a throw back to the old UFC days maybe do one per PPV a fight that say has a 1 hour time limit so guys like gracie who need more time to do there thing have a better chance as well
 

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Well size in a way does and doesn't matter. Of course it doesn't determine the power that someone has but if a fighter is bigger it's just a little unfair when it comes to how each of them has to handle the fight, and besides a Heavyweight vs lets say a middleweight looks kind of stupid

Edit: God damn this thread is old
 
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