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ROCKET FISTS
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Discussion Starter #1
Alright, everyone knows I'm a Lesnar hater and Fedor nuthugger. Out of respect however I usually choose to back my hate and love with facts and historical evidence.

I've got a question for Lesnar fans to answer:

Where is this extreme learning curve that Lesnar apparently has?

He didn't look any better technically against Couture than he did against Mir. Infact, Couture proved that Lesnar's wrestling is overrated. With a massive reach and weight disadvantage, Couture still neutralized Brock's take downs.

His standup didn't look any better either. Infact, in Mir II he didn't want to stand with Mir at all. Some crazy improvement huh? He did throw a leg kick or two, so that's something.

Now he did utilize wrist control more actively in Mir II, but that was due to respect to Mir's ground game. In the first match Lesnar came out very cocky, and with the help of a bias ref he paid for it.

I will give that in that one match, Lesnar's game plan seemed to compliment how terrible Mir's game plan was. That is measurable improvement. Props to his coach.


But we're not seeing this wild improvement from Lesnar - I don't take it seriously when people say "in a few years, Lesnar will be unstoppable."

People thought that a lot about Sapp too. Lesnar has only proven to be one-dimensional, his submission game and his standup have not improved.

Some fighters simply cannot adapt. It's tough to admit, but look at Sapp, look at poor Maia, look at Houston Alexander. These guys work on their stand up or ground game respectively full time to try to improve. But do they? No, it just does not come naturally for them.

If you watch one of Maia's first fights, a striker is coming at him and he throws two predictable high kicks. This is the same mistake he makes years later against Marquardt. Yet he's had top-tier training with world class muay thai strikers.

It's possible Brock will improve and become a well-rounded fighter. But at this point there is no evidence for that, and this mentality is getting a little crazy I think. ;):thumbsup:
 

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ROCKET FISTS
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Discussion Starter #4
He is the UFC HW Champion, and hasn't even had a chance to defend his title. Give him a freakin' break...
Nah I have nothing against Lesnar really. He's a necessary heel and fun to watch, even more fun to watch him lose. There have been tons like him, ie Sylvia, Sapp, Tito at LHW, etc.

But it's getting out of control with his fans thinking he can take anyone down and pound them out, especially when the facts aren't there to prove it.


And he's not training MMA right now, he's been sick for months apparently. One could argue right now he's getting worse. ;)


counter edit: I passed out so much pos rep last night that I couldn't rep for 24hrs. :thumbsup:
 

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Id like to point out that Couture is a greco-roman wrestler and Lesnar is a freestyle wrestler. That is why Couture was effective at times neutralizing Lesnar, but Lesnar still got the takedowns.
 

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Abusive
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Alright, everyone knows I'm a Lesnar hater and Fedor nuthugger.
Nah I have nothing against Lesnar really.
You obviously do. He has pounded out every opponent, with the exception of Mir v. Lesnar I. He uses his size to his advantage, and has a great wrestling background. We're not saying that Lesnar could destroy Fedor, but to say that Lesnar won't make an impact in the HW division is crazy.
 

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Lesnar has improved and I am sure he will continue to improve. He is one of those freak of nature athletes that can do almost anything he sets his mind to whether it is wrestling, football or MMA.

He may not have improved his wrestling between Mir 1 and Mir 2 but how he used that wrestling is what made the difference. He is learning how he can use his strength to completely take his opposition out of the fight.

Standing up he had some troubles with Mir but I think that comes down to Lesnar seeing something he had never dealt with before. That being that Mir wasn't boxing with him, he was attacking using Muay Thai elbows and knees. Lesnar had been working his boxing but didn't know how to counter those attacks by Mir and wasn't expecting them like the jumping knee that rocked him a little. I bet he has worked on that since and figured some ways around it.

And as for the Couture fight I am not one of the ones that thinks Couture actually proved any weakness in Lesnars wrestling. Anyone who thought Lesnar would throw Couture around like a rag doll or anything like that was dreaming. Couture even though he gave up some size is probably the 2nd best wrestler out of all MMA fighters. Lesnar was never taken down by him and did take Couture down. Lesnar was also very cautious in that fight.

I don't think that Lesnar will become an all around dominant force like say GSP but I do think he will get to the point where he can handle himself decently in regards to stand up striking and will use his excellent wrestling to win fights, much like Couture did/does.
 

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Id like to point out that Couture is a greco-roman wrestler and Lesnar is a freestyle wrestler. That is why Couture was effective at times neutralizing Lesnar, but Lesnar still got the takedowns.

Unfortunately most people don't know the difference. They hear "wrestler" and think it's all the same.
 

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You obviously do. He has pounded out every opponent, with the exception of Mir v. Lesnar I. He uses his size to his advantage, and has a great wrestling background. We're not saying that Lesnar could destroy Fedor, but to say that Lesnar won't make an impact in the HW division is crazy.
Especially as he already has...

I really dislike Lesnar, however.. his wrestling is incredible. Added with his size and strength it's dangerous for anyone at HW. If he also gets a good Jits game and some technical striking he will continue to impact on the division for a very very long time.
 

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Some fighters simply cannot adapt. It's tough to admit, but look at Sapp, look at poor Maia, look at Houston Alexander. These guys work on their stand up or ground game respectively full time to try to improve. But do they? No, it just does not come naturally for them.
And how many of them beat the champion in there respective divisions? Come on I want an answer...
 

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ROCKET FISTS
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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
To Toxic: Who did Sapp beat? He beat Ernesto Hoost TWICE. He pounded mercilessly on Nog until he got submitted in his third match ever. Who does that sound like?

Soko beat Lil Nog and Ricardo Arona in a row. Tito held the LHW belt for the longest time in UFC History and looked unbeatable. How do they look now?

Don't pretend for a second that Lesnar's career thus far doesn't remind you of Sapp, Tito, etc.

I had the rest of this typed but my internet lost it so I'll paraphrase :(

Lesnar's realistic wrestling background: Hasn't been involved in a wrestling tournament that was non-professional in a DECADE. Couldn't outgrapple Couture with a 50lb weight advantage. Hasn't faced any other wrestlers.

Someone said I hate Lesnar, I hate Lesnar because of his fans. At least Tito's fans knew they were wrong deep down. ;) I don't mind watching Lesnar even when he's playing the heel.


I'll try to track down the rest of my post.
 

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I like Brock and I like Fedor, I think Brock would have done better then Rogers did last night. Brock is powerful and can take some punches too. Once he is not sick anymore, you will see when he fights Carwin. Brock will put Carwin to rest and then after that if you don't think he is good then you never will.
 

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ROCKET FISTS
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Discussion Starter #14
I like Brock and I like Fedor, I think Brock would have done better then Rogers did last night. Brock is powerful and can take some punches too. Once he is not sick anymore, you will see when he fights Carwin. Brock will put Carwin to rest and then after that if you don't think he is good then you never will.
Whoooaaaa buddy, save that stuff for another time. :thumb02:

Seriously that's a can of worms in an already contraversal thread.
 

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Why are u comparing him to sapp/tito? I'm lost.

Is he improving? Well seeing as he lost the first fight to Mir, then beat him in the rematch and took the HW belt in the process. Yeah, I'd say he's improving. He beat two tough top 10 fighters, convincingly.

Couture never out-grappled him, go back and watch the fight. Sure, Randy could manuvere a bit, but Brock had control of that fight. He pushed him up against the fence and finished him.
Against Mir, he didn't just utilize wrist control. He used his whole body very effectively, he kept patient, picked his shots and kept his hips and body pressed against Mir, giving him no room to breath or actively look for a sub. Smart strategy, planned well.

He's improving, but it's just hard to really pick one moment where he improved. It's MMA, anything can happen, you have to be ready to adapt to it. No one could train MMA as much as he did, and not improve at all.
 

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To Toxic: Who did Sapp beat? He beat Ernesto Hoost TWICE. He pounded mercilessly on Nog until he got submitted in his third match ever. Who does that sound like?

Soko beat Lil Nog and Ricardo Arona in a row. Tito held the LHW belt for the longest time in UFC History and looked unbeatable. How do they look now?

Don't pretend for a second that Lesnar's career thus far doesn't remind you of Sapp, Tito, etc.

I had the rest of this typed but my internet lost it so I'll paraphrase :(

Lesnar's realistic wrestling background: Hasn't been involved in a wrestling tournament that was non-professional in a DECADE. Couldn't outgrapple Couture with a 50lb weight advantage. Hasn't faced any other wrestlers.

Someone said I hate Lesnar, I hate Lesnar because of his fans. At least Tito's fans knew they were wrong deep down. ;) I don't mind watching Lesnar even when he's playing the heel.


I'll try to track down the rest of my post.
I'm done. Your blatantly obvious hate for Lesnar is really pushing this thread over the edge. You keep trying to prove that he's not legitimate, but all in all, Lesnar is the current UFC HW Champion. Does he deserve it? It doesn't matter what you think, he has it. He has fought, and defeated, everyone they've thrown infront of him since his debut loss to Mir, and he still can't catch a break.
 

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ROCKET FISTS
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Discussion Starter #17
I'm done. Your blatantly obvious hate for Lesnar is really pushing this thread over the edge. You keep trying to prove that he's not legitimate, but all in all, Lesnar is the current UFC HW Champion. Does he deserve it? It doesn't matter what you think, he has it. He has fought, and defeated, everyone they've thrown infront of him since his debut loss to Mir, and he still can't catch a break.
This thread is about his fans thinking he's invincible and improving at an unprecedented rate. History shows us that this is not the case, and he is not the first of his kind.


Do you not agree? Does he not resemble Sapp's early career? Or Tito's? Sapp didn't have millions of UFC dollars backing him, of course, or the fame from professional wrestling.

I guess you're just on the train of people who think Lesnar will ground and pound everyone he's ever going to face?
 

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Abusive
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This thread is about his fans thinking he's invincible and improving at an unprecedented rate. History shows us that this is not the case, and he is not the first of his kind.


Do you not agree? Does he not resemble Sapp's early career? Or Tito's? Sapp didn't have millions of UFC dollars backing him, of course, or the fame from professional wrestling.

I guess you're just on the train of people who think Lesnar will ground and pound everyone he's ever going to face?
What? I stopped reading when you compared Brock Lesnar to Bob Sapp.
 

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Lesnar's realistic wrestling background: Hasn't been involved in a wrestling tournament that was non-professional in a DECADE. Couldn't outgrapple Couture with a 50lb weight advantage. Hasn't faced any other wrestlers.

Someone said I hate Lesnar, I hate Lesnar because of his fans. At least Tito's fans knew they were wrong deep down. ;) I don't mind watching Lesnar even when he's playing the heel.


I'll try to track down the rest of my post.
Could you please go watch the Couture/Lesnar fight and please pinpoint the time when Lesnar fails to out grapple Randy for gods sake he took Randy down in the clinch, he took an Olympic alternate down in the clinch, he also managed to reverse a takedown attempt by Randy into a throw and thats all in the first 3 minutes of the fight, Brock is almost constantly in control for the first round, when does the part start when Brock isnt out grappling Randy?
 
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