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Machida is a strong guy, he doesn't look the part isn't big or show dense, he's not a power striker, his faze a dude and attack with flurries compensates..... but but in terms of strength in the core, and using his arms to get position, he pushes guys around - he did it to Rua, Evans, Thiago Silva, and Tito - pushed all these guys around.


Forrest is a big strong dude, hasn't really ever been pushed around, not even by Rampage.

So i'm thinking about Forrest V Machida fight, if no serious damage has been done yet, who has the greater capacity to pin the other guy against the cage?
 

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Great Googly Moogly!
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Forrest is pretty huge for the Light Heavyweight class. He's 6'4" and walks around at 240. Lyoto, while still big, doesn't look nearly as big and I don't believe he cuts much weight (Just guessing but he just doesn't look like he walks around at anything over 210.)

In terms of raw power I would have to say Forrest gets the nod. Machida is able to throw people around because of his quickness and his amazing technique. The way he uses leverage in clinches is second to none in MMA in my opinion. There aren't a lot of guys not named Fedor who can move opponents around with such little effort. If he were to get into an outright power struggle, though, I don't think he would win. In a fight though, Forrest would be against the cage because of Lyoto's superior technique and Forrest's tendency to allow his opponent to control where the fight goes.
 

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I gotta go with forrest, but machida is faster, is way more skilled and a much better striker.
 

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Didn't Machida used to do sumo? He's a deceivingly strong guy.

Machida would throw Forrest to the mat. Forrest got put on his back by Tito, Machida threw Tito down like a small child. I just can't see Forrest having that same core strength and technique as Machida.

Here's a no brainer for Machida... out strike all these guys with average to good striking, and use your ridiculous strength, takedowns and the top game you are going to hopefully work on to face high level kickboxers... basically Shogun.

Machida is such a talent, I think he just needs to switch it up for Shogun once he walks through some contenders. Shogun showed he could get up from under Machida because he's a wizard on the ground, but if Machida trains on his top game enough, with the strength he has he'll be able to GnP some fools.

I'm a big Shogun fan but Machida too, and hope he comes back strong from the KO loss.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Didn't Machida used to do sumo? He's a deceivingly strong guy.

Machida would throw Forrest to the mat. Forrest got put on his back by Tito, Machida threw Tito down like a small child. I just can't see Forrest having that same core strength and technique as Machida.

Here's a no brainer for Machida... out strike all these guys with average to good striking, and use your ridiculous strength, takedowns and the top game you are going to hopefully work on to face high level kickboxers... basically Shogun.

Machida is such a talent, I think he just needs to switch it up for Shogun once he walks through some contenders. Shogun showed he could get up from under Machida because he's a wizard on the ground, but if Machida trains on his top game enough, with the strength he has he'll be able to GnP some fools.

I'm a big Shogun fan but Machida too, and hope he comes back strong from the KO loss.
I think Machida will go back to counter striking / hitting and running - with balance a his weird posture.

Back to the original question, I think Forrest is going to do everything to close the gap on Machida quick and pin him against the cage -ala Carwin to Mir- and try to attack with knees. Whatever, it'll be an interesting fight, Machida obviously the favorite, but Forrest always a mystery...
 

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Size isn't just height. You also have to consider weight, which does play a significant role in strength (hence weight classes and cutting weight).
True. I'd prefer to go by what happens in the octagon, and from what I've seen Forrest isn't 'hands down' stronger than Machida. If anything, it's the other way around. Like I've said, Machida rag dolled Ortiz, took down Shogun with ease etc.
 

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True. I'd prefer to go by what happens in the octagon, and from what I've seen Forrest isn't 'hands down' stronger than Machida. If anything, it's the other way around. Like I've said, Machida rag dolled Ortiz, took down Shogun with ease etc.
Yeah but the stronger of the two would be forrest. Machida would win any clinch grappling but that is because of technique and not strength. That and Forrest would probably let him since he tries to gas his opponents by them holding them on the ground where he is much more dangerous. That is what he did in the Rua fight at least.
 

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So now it's not an issue of strength, only technique? Well then what's the point of even discussing it? What strength are you talking about and how are you quantifying it? Bench press? Punching power? Size?

The only strength that really matters is that which is combined with technique. I still think Machida is the stronger of the two but none of us know for sure so it's a pointless thing to debate.

If Forrest and Machida tie up, Forrest will hit the canvas and Machida will be on top, that's all that matters.
 

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lol you're comparing the two weakest guys in the LHW division and comparing who's got more "brute" strength? Neither of them has much, they coast along mostly on technique (Machida) and heart/luck/subs (Griffin)

Seriously, neither of these guys has much KO power.... Forrest has absolutely none. Machida has some, but again his KOs were more due to perfect circumstances; like his flurry on Rashad, a full weight down punch on Thiago, and a flush kick on a half downed Rich.

Then you take their grappling strength and Forrest gets absolutely ragdolled in half his fights (watch the Ortiz fight) and has zero takedowns, TD power and reversal strength. His grappling is mostly from his back or rolling around from scrambles etc.

An argument could be made for Machida's grappling strength but it's still pretty weak. He relies mostly on excellent redirection, trips and off-balance type stuff instead of powerful singles, doubles or slams.

I mean c'mon in a division filled with grappling powerhouses like Jones, Ortiz, Couture, Rashad, Rampage, Bader etc. and striking powerhouses like Chuck, Thiago, Lil Nog, Luiz Cane, 'Page again and so on, you pick these two to compare strength? Is this like a which midget is taller contest?
 

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First of all, are we talking purely hypothetically or has this fight been rumored?

Secondly, I have no doubt that Forrest is stronger than Machida, if they were to arm wrestle or have a bench press contest, Forrest would lay him down. Having said that, if there is one thing MMA has taught us it's that technique will prevail every time, Royce Gracie anyone? In the cage Machida decides where this match with Forrest takes place during the grapple... and it will either be with Forrest's back against cage, or on the mat.
 

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I think when its broken down to its most basic components, Griffin has more kinetic potential, in the sense he has more raw move a heavy thing from point a to b than Machida. However, I do not believe Griffin has the abililty or the understanding of technique enough to use that raw a to b strength.

Machida, a man who has trained in Sumo, has a very developed understanding of how to move an object from a to b without the superior strength. That's how Sumo works, the practitioner uses their body weight to move their opponent around from a negative weight advantage.

In this instance, I give the nod to Machida, he knows how to use his body weight far better than Griffin, giving him a distinct advantage when it comes to pushing around his opponent.
 

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lol @ Machida being "weak"
Well relatively speaking, he is, as far a raw strength goes. Especially when compared to the rest of the division. He is a small LHW who relies on trips, misdirection, momentum and evasiveness. It doesn't make him a bad fighter by any stretch, he's one of the best ever and I'm a Machida fan myself. But "Brute Strength" is not what leaps to mind when Machida is mentioned. He has never picked up and slammed anyone, or executed a single/double, which are takedowns that make use of strength. His KOs are few and circumstantial. Show me one gif of a "power" move by Machida besides his few KOs... I can make dozens for Rampage, Couture, Chuck, Jones etc.
 

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Forrest does have KO power. He's huge, but just doesn't trust himself to throw his full power and not leave himself open. He tends to just push his punches out, and look for accuracy instead of power. I have no doubts that if Forrest threw his full power into his shots he'd easily have KO power. He just doesn't throw leather like Rampage or Rashad. The same for Bisping. He clearly has KO power judging by his training videos, just chooses not to through it, to protect his chin and avoid getting powerfully countered. I'm sure both of them could knock a guy out with 4oz gloves on if they threw their full power into their shots.
 

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Well relatively speaking, he is, as far a raw strength goes. Especially when compared to the rest of the division. He is a small LHW who relies on trips, misdirection, momentum and evasiveness. It doesn't make him a bad fighter by any stretch, he's one of the best ever and I'm a Machida fan myself. But "Brute Strength" is not what leaps to mind when Machida is mentioned. He has never picked up and slammed anyone, or executed a single/double, which are takedowns that make use of strength. His KOs are few and circumstancial.

I think you have soemthing of a point in that Machida may not have the same brute strength someone like Griffin might have. But I think its his ability to use what strength he possesses that makes him superior to Griffin in this regard. While Griffin may be able to bench press more, and do more pull ups, and deadlift more, he still can't control the clinch. And that was the point of the thread. Machida is better able to use his strength and muscle an opponent than Griffin, whether he augments his strength with technique is immaterial.
 

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Well relatively speaking, he is, as far a raw strength goes. Especially when compared to the rest of the division. He is a small LHW who relies on trips, misdirection, momentum and evasiveness. It doesn't make him a bad fighter by any stretch, he's one of the best ever and I'm a Machida fan myself. But "Brute Strength" is not what leaps to mind when Machida is mentioned. He has never picked up and slammed anyone, or executed a single/double, which are takedowns that make use of strength. His KOs are few and circumstantial. Show me one gif of a "power" move by Machida besides his few KOs... I can make dozens for Rampage, Couture, Chuck, Jones etc.
How do you know? You're saying it so definitively but you don't know that anymore than I do. Who has eve taken Machida down? Ok he hasn't faced the best wrestlers but there's nothing so far to suggest Machida isn't strong, quite the opposite.

I don't see that stuffing takedowns, body locking Ortiz and throwing him down, basically pushing Shogun over as just technique. That is the signs of strength as well as technique. Machida has a very thick structure, and isn't as small as some of you are saying. He has thick bones, trunk legs and is very strong, imo, based on that and what he's done in his fights.

He is good at trips, but he's also shown a lot of strength with takedowns and TDD. We'll see even more when he faces wrestlers who try to take him down. I bet now that he'll stuff more takedowns than times he gets taken down.

As for power, well power doesn't = strength. Couture is strong, does he have KO power? But I never said Machida had power, I said I think he is strong.
 
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