[swpthleg]

Uhg.. I read most of this thread.. I got tired of hearing the same things as I read it backwards..

About kicks.
At my TKD school we have been taught to twist our hips, though I heard someone say most TKD schools don't teach that. I assumed they did.. At the TKD place I attend, I train under a fifth dan. He is governed under a seventh dan I believe. I was taught when you choose to kick "through" a target your leg stays on the target as you're trying to go through. Lets say the target is a persons head. This causes the power transfered from your leg to go into the head but as your leg stays connected to the head some of the energy from your kick will bounce back into your leg thus causing a less powerful kick. So he taught us when you make that strong contact you snap your leg back so the power will have nowhere to escape. (this was explained to me when I was young, around 10 years old so I may have misinterpreted some things) I have no clue where this logic comes from or if it can/has been proven. This is simply something I was taught. As for using your hips when you kick, it's the same principle as when punching. The energy you gather moves fromm the ground up the legs and as your hips snap the energy forces itself out through the chosen contact point(the foot). I have heard some people complain that TKD kicks are useless. This simply is not true, the kick have been developed and are effective. The fact is not everyone does a said kick the same way therefore the kick isn't preformed as it was made to. I feel like an idiot explain these things since it feels like everyone says I'm wrong.

About History.
I also heard someone say something about how since TKD is one of the newest martial arts it isn't something that derives from martial arts that use "brutality". Early Tae Kwon Do was developed from the ancient art of Hwa Rang do which is an extremely "brutal" martial art. Most serious fights being only to the death it focuses on punches, kicks, locks, and fatal techniques. I don't know much more about this so I won't go to deeply into it.


I will save more talk about this when I hear more and/or get responses. xD
I respect each and every martial art equally. In my eyes all martial arts are equal in their own respects, the only difference is the people who practice them.

By the way, I am a first degree, second level in TKD with 5-7years of experience(not saying thats alot).

I loved seeing the hwa rang do shout out. It was practiced by the youth movement Hwa Rang, which I assume was essentially very young soldiers, and there was an article about it in Black Belt which I have had for years.

As you may also know there is a palgwe hyung called hwa rang.

 

[Mookie]

Fieos, I apologize for my lack of knowledge to this matter.
My current instructor moved to Canada to help his wife get American citizenship so eventually he will come back. x.x

I will try to get ahold of him and ask for more reasoning behind rechambering. As of now I am helping teach at his school with his mother (fourth degree) and his sister (fifth degree). I will question them about this aswell though I doubt they will give me knowledge to the extent that I would be satisfied.

Regarding the method of "pulling" the kick back, that makes it seem as if you literally mean to stop the power like when using extreme control to fight lower ranks(this is not what I mean). When you fight them you don't slow your kicks down but stop the complete power. When fighting and you kick, you throw all your kicks with 100% effort. When you hit a target you don't "stop" the kick but in a means of getting ready for another you would snap it back. As you said you do sometimes when throwing multiple kicks. Many things I might say contradict themselves, this is simply because sometimes when you're taught something you may not know the exact way to do it.

Say like when you are doing calculus, you are being taught the methods by a teacher but when you hear another teacher say this method here can be better you may not know which is right.

As of now I am confused but I suppose that is one of the lessons of youth.

I do sincerely apologize if I sound arrogant or biast, I don't mean to be. Everything that is told to me I do and will take into account. I respect everyones way of doing things and I am aware just because you're taught something does not mean it is right, if this comes to be the case I will simply ask how to do it right. :]


Swpthleg, I'm glad someone else aknowledges who they are as it seems in todays TKD "scene" most places I have asked around told me they had no clue what I was talking about so it must be a lie which is very disappointing to me. I have a little information given to me about them and the palgwe hyung (pattern) corresponding with each other.

Hwa-Rang Tul (29 movements)
Hwa Rang is named after the Hwa Rang youth group which originated in the Silla Dynasty in the early 7th century. The 29 movements refer to the 29th infantry Division, where Taekwondo developed into maturity.



This is a passage we are to memorize before we can achieve our first dan along with a passage for each of our palgwe hyung corresponding to the history behind it.

I highly respect the information BOTH of you provide for this community aswell as every other contributing member. I feel as if I learn so much everyday I read through the masses of topics, threads, opinions, methods, and facts.


My spelling may be terrible which I am not proud of but please bare with me.

 

[swpthleg]

Hopefully the spelling cops will stay away from this thread.

Currently I take karate, but I took TKD for 3 1/2 years and am an advanced green belt. Our instructor was also big on memorization. I think this is just a coincidence and the emphasis on memorization varies from school to school.

I switched to the school where I am now for a variety of reasons, none of them personal. I loved my teacher, classmates and the art of TKD.

I loved the historical chapter at the beginning of my TKD book, and I should google more of this stuff, b/c it was fascinating.

Good post BTW.

 

[SabreGhost]

But ur limited in tdk rules in terms of fighting. But in street fighting tdk is deadly. TO sum it all up i would take tdk over thai that's just my opinion but u can never say one discipline is better than the other cause each person is unique.

Just wanted to throw my two cents in - I've gone against black belts in TKD before, and was forced (yes forced) to do some TKD while I was on a tour in Korea. TKD IMHO looked flashy, but was not practical. I've seen black belts get crushed by students of other arts and in street fights.

Take a look at the first couple of UFC's - hell UFC 1 & 2 even. Back while it was one art vs another. TKD didn't do too well.

Ken Shamrock vs Patrick Smith
Shamrock wins by submission due to a heel hook at 1:51.
Patrick Smith vs Ray Wizard
Smith wins by submission with a guillotine choke in 58 seconds
Point here being, Smith didn't win his matches with TKD

I've got to say though, if you seriously spend a lot of time with any art, you deserve props and respect. I enjoy watching TKD demonstrations, but I've got to say that I'm definitely not impressed by the practicality side - especially if the practitioner spends most of their time working towards competitions for TKD. Muay Thai on the other hand - regardless of what you do or don't practice you've got to admit its brutal, and effective. Even more so on the street since half the time, if you cut someone with an elbow they want to give up at just the sight of their own blood.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Smith_(fighter)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFC_1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcPr4r92b_0&feature=PlayList&p=8BAC36D1197B8CB2&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=2

 

[BlacklistShaun]

Smith was arrested in 1999 for sexual assault on a child, and subsequently after his conviction was registered as a sex offender. He was later arrested again for failing to re-register in 2008, a felony in Colorado.

 

[SabreGhost]

Eh, kinda funny to note, but besides the point lol. I used him more to illustrate that he started off TKD, back when UFC was more along the lines of boxing vs karate or tkd, and stuff like that.

 

[jasvll]

Smith was arrested in 1999 for sexual assault on a child, and subsequently after his conviction was registered as a sex offender. He was later arrested again for failing to re-register in 2008, a felony in Colorado.

Clearly, Tae Kwon Do leads to sex offense.

As for the on-topic part, a lot of people claimed a lot of styles in the early days of the UFC. Almost as often, these people had no business claiming the style, much less being in the Octagon, so it's not really fair to judge an art by what some guy filled out on his fighter info form. Even today, few, if any, traditional martial artists show up in the cage/ring. There are more than a few who have transitioned from TMAs to MMA and are able to bring what works with them, though.

 

[SabreGhost]

Clearly, Tae Kwon Do leads to sex offense.

So thats what's wrong with people these days... and here I thought it was just in the water.

You're definitely right about that. A lot of people did claim a lot of things, so I guess with out any real sort of evidence, its kind of hard to really say what kind of experience he had without knowing him. But that is kind of what I was getting at, very few traditional arts are practical now days. Original point of the convo being that muay thai has seemed a lot more practical, both inside and outside of a ring.

It makes me think about starting up a true "self-defense" school. I'll call it TKD2-The Return.

 

[joshua7789]

Serkan Yilmaz isnt the greatest kickboxer in the world, but his base is TKD and he uses it pretty effectivly when he fights. Lots of fun to watch.

 

[BlacklistShaun]

I've always had the same question about TKD. Everytime I talk to someone that does TKD they tell me they do it then immediately say "but my school is not like the ones you hear about...it's hardcore and they only teach stuff that works in the real world". Now with that being said...I have heard this from literally every single person that I have ever come across that does TKD, so if all the TKD schools out there are "real fight schools" then where are all the McDojo's?

On a side note when I was doing Muay-Thai for a few years a long time ago my instructor passed away and I had to find another place to train. At the time there were no other MT schools around so I started going to TKD and Karate schools just for some sparring. They would always get mad because I refused to learn forms and test, but I did get in some matches with lots of TKD guys. I have to say that I didn't find one school where I'm from that was for real. They were riddled with guys who thought TKD was the most effective striking art on the face of the earth (thanks to their instructors), then comes along a descent MT kickboxer who's tearing them apart, which coupled with the fact I refused to test and learn forms got me kicked out of several TKD schools.

From my experience in most TKD schools I went too they only did point sparring and the ones that did "free" sparring only did light contact to the body and only punched to the head (light contact). I for the life of me could not figure out how to get someone to fight me light contact on the street so I wrote it off as pretty useless.

I don't have anything against TKD. As a matter of fact I have several good friends who have their own TKD schools and are pretty high ranking black belts. They are down to earth guys for the most part, but some of them think they are Jean-Claude Van Damme. One TKD instructor that I'm friends with (5th black) has a son that's 1st black under him. I was joking around with him one day saying "hey man, when we gonna spar?" and his dad looked at him and said "son, he did MT kickboxing for a long time...unless you want to be walking around on crutches from getting kicked in the legs I wouldn't suggest it".

I'm not trying to start a fight about any of this. I'm simply speaking from my experience. I think there are some salvagable things in TKD, but I feel for the most part if you are gonna talk about street effectiveness there is no comparisson between MT and TKD. TKD is a point sport for the most part while MT is a fight sport.

 

[xeberus]

Muay Thai is for men and women who desire to be badasses.

TKD is for little girls who desire to kick and look pretty while doing it.

There is always the exceptional TKD school which is decent and the shittiest school claiming to teach MT who blows, but generally MT hands down as the superior fighting style.

 

[swpthleg]

It's bad to want to look pretty while you're kicking?

My school was definitely atypical.

 

[BlacklistShaun]

Pretty doesn't always win fights.

If I have a choice between being pretty and being effective I'm choosing effective.

Like I said though, there are some things that can be taken from TKD and used effectively. You just have to sort through it and remove all the jumping and spinning stuff, teach them how to keep their hands up, and no throw their hands wide open every time they throw a strike.

 

[IronMan]

Pretty doesn't always win fights.

Actually, I've made a point of telling the guys I train with the inverse:

Ugly wins fights.

I mean, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is effective, but it's not flashy. It's minimalism, simplicity and effectiveness. Those three things are enough.

Even in boxing, some of the most effective fighters don't have flashy styles. Calzaghe was incredibly effective, not that flashy. Tyson was a minimalist, but his power was so devastating that even using the basic bob-and-weave-to-bolo was enough to destroy his opponents.

Muay thai has some stuff that's not combat effective. TKD has some stuff that's not combat effective. The difference is, the core of muay thai is full contact, and the basics of muay thai work in full contact fights. The basics of TKD don't.

 

[Fieos]

Jab, cross, staight, hook, uppercut, elbows, knees, roundhouse, sidekick, front kick... Pretty sure those are TKD basics and they seem to be pretty common in MMA.

Gracie Jiu-Jitsu may be minimal, simple, and effective but that's not enough if the fight doesn't go to the ground. GJJ is not the MMA solution any more than any other style of martial art.

I'm tired of people not understanding there is a functional side to TKD and an artistic side. TKD is a martial art and any martial art requires adjustments to be an effictive fighting method.

 

[BlacklistShaun]

Jab, cross, staight, hook, uppercut, elbows, knees, roundhouse, sidekick, front kick... Pretty sure those are TKD basics and they seem to be pretty common in MMA.

Gracie Jiu-Jitsu may be minimal, simple, and effective but that's not enough if the fight doesn't go to the ground. GJJ is not the MMA solution any more than any other style of martial art.

I'm tired of people not understanding there is a functional side to TKD and an artistic side. TKD is a martial art and any martial art requires adjustments to be an effictive fighting method.

I am not sure about your experience with TKD, but I went to a lot of different schools in my area and my experience was always the same.

I spent a lot of time doing Muay-Thai before I started going to TKD gyms so I was a pretty descent boxer. Just about every class I went too I would use good technique on jabs, crosses, uppercuts, hooks, etc...I would always get corrected and told "this is how we do it in TKD". It was always less effecient and flashier ways of doing it IMO.

Another thing I would get corrected on quite often was I love kicking the legs. Every class I went too I was told immediately "no leg kicks". How are you going to learn how to defend or use leg kicks when you don't use them??

Several of the schools I went too (not all of them) taught to roundhouse kick with the foot and not the shin. Some had adapted using the shin; although I'm not sure which is more traditional. To me kicking with the foot is stupid...what happens when you break your foot? Then you are in the middle of a fight and can't stand.

Most of the schools as well did not allow strikes to the face. Same as leg kicks...how are you going to learn how to defend or strike to the face if you can't do it training? You can't.

From what I saw of the stances, most of them were pretty useless. To me the stances were set up more for point sparring and not street fighting. Some big leg stance isn't going to win fights on the street or against kickboxers. If you don't believe that just take a look at Machida and how he got his leg kicked to death last week.

Kata was the all time worse thing I saw. I did Karate (got a black belt in Shorin-Ryu Karate) and I never agreed with kata. Some people say it's useful for something...what I don't know. This isn't the Karate Kid, nobody is gonna stand there in awe while you do some stupid form...you are gonna start doing it and they are gonna kick the crap out of you.

My biggest gripe with Karate and TKD is the belt test and the fact that they give belts out for money. When I got my black belt I paid about $1500 to get it. I have seen schools that charge more than that. When I got my belts in BJJ I paid nothing, I went into class one day and they handed me a belt and told me "you earned this".

 

[Fieos]

TKD doesn't really start until the black belt level and then it becomes what you make of it. When I was kickboxing I used TKD as my base and it worked very well. I've cleaned it up and it is still my base for MMA striking. Obviously I'm the exception and not the rule but the reality is that the art is fine, it is the business of TKD that gives so many people these 'buy-a-belt' experiences.

 

[swpthleg]

I have always hated belt tests and still do. It doesn't measure how good you are in that discipline as much as it should, it's more about whether you're a good test-taker.

I wish teachers made it known that they would give out the belt at random when they felt you'd earned it, that way everyone would work harder all the time.

 

[BlacklistShaun]

TKD doesn't really start until the black belt level and then it becomes what you make of it. When I was kickboxing I used TKD as my base and it worked very well. I've cleaned it up and it is still my base for MMA striking. Obviously I'm the exception and not the rule but the reality is that the art is fine, it is the business of TKD that gives so many people these 'buy-a-belt' experiences.

I'm having a little trouble understanding what you mean by "TKD doesn't really start until the black belt level". Are you saying that you don't do forms and all that junk after black belt? Do all the techniques suddenly change after you get your black belt? Are there some kind of new fighting tricks they teach you once you get your black belt?

The way I'm taking it you are saying that once you get your black belt you can pretty much take what you learned and change it to what you want. If that's the case and you take things FROM TKD and make them "your own" and make them work for you, then you are not actually doing that art anymore, you are changing it to something else that's not TKD. One of the biggest fallings in styles like Karate and TKD is that it's pretty well written in stone...this is the style, bottom line. That's why I love BJJ so much...if someone comes up with a new move or something that works it's incorporated and next thing you know just about every school across the country is doing it, but you don't see that diversity in TKD and Karate....it is what it is.

 

[jasvll]

I'm having a little trouble understanding what you mean by "TKD doesn't really start until the black belt level". Are you saying that you don't do forms and all that junk after black belt? Do all the techniques suddenly change after you get your black belt? Are there some kind of new fighting tricks they teach you once you get your black belt?

The way I'm taking it you are saying that once you get your black belt you can pretty much take what you learned and change it to what you want. If that's the case and you take things FROM TKD and make them "your own" and make them work for you, then you are not actually doing that art anymore, you are changing it to something else that's not TKD. One of the biggest fallings in styles like Karate and TKD is that it's pretty well written in stone...this is the style, bottom line. That's why I love BJJ so much...if someone comes up with a new move or something that works it's incorporated and next thing you know just about every school across the country is doing it, but you don't see that diversity in TKD and Karate....it is what it is.

TKD has and continues to evolve. It is an ever-changing art, especially when it comes to footwork. Are there a lot of crappy schools? Sure. Are some focused on kids' grades and behavior and not on true combat? Sure. Are some of the rules and techniques of sport TKD terrible for real combat? Sure. That being said, there are also many TKD schools that teach tradition, sport, and combat and their differences very well and those schools seem to have no problem producing TKD practitioners whose techniques hold up just fine in the combat department. I've personally witnessed others' success and experienced it myself.