Mixed Martial Arts Forum banner
1 - 20 of 93 Posts

·
To the death George
Joined
·
2,306 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
http://sherdogblog.craveonline.com/blog/2010-04-05#23654



Lately, the pound-for-pound debate has been taking a three-way split: Anderson Silva, Georges St. Pierre, and Fedor Emelianenko. B.J. Penn’s suffocation at the hands of St. Pierre over a year ago has polluted his participation. And it’s a shame. Of the four men mentioned, it’s Penn who has done the most to convince me his abilities deserve discussion of transcending the sport.

What other 155-pound athlete could ever survive in a ring against the current 205-pound champion? (Penn did, against Lyoto Machida in 2005.) Who else could have moved up to 170 to obliterate Matt Hughes at a time when Hughes was driving a steamroller over contenders? (St. Pierre hasn’t budged from 170; Anderson Silva went to 205 for fights against Forrest Griffin and James Irvin.)

Penn takes chances. While they’re not always successful, he shouldn’t be penalized for leaving his ego near the apron.

If he beats Frankie Edgar Saturday, Penn tells MMAWeekly.com that he might consider another, proper run at the welterweight title. “I think a fighter has to stay true to himself and what his goals and accomplishments are, what really motivates him,” he said. “…I really wouldn’t mind being the welterweight champion again.”

Previously, Penn’s conditioning didn’t match his ambitions: he showed up underweight and overmatched for the Hughes and St. Pierre sequels. What he needs is quality weight, not the garbage pounds he piled on during a run in Japan. Mackie Shilstone, who stuffed Michael Spinks with 4,000 calories a day and successfully helped him challenge for Larry Holmes’ heavyweight title, met with Penn once; he’s now hooked up with notorious fitness guru Marv Marinovich, who has fueled Penn’s long-distance efforts at 155 over the past two years. (Marv and his brother Gary, Penn told ESPN the Magazine, “turned me back into a 22-year-old.”)

Even with a perfect program, Penn is unlikely to ever match St. Pierre’s sheer physicality in the cage. But that does not make him the inferior fighter. Performance is relative to environment. Penn finishes fights; St. Pierre does not. Penn moves up; St. Pierre remains stationary. Penn pursues the best; Silva says he can’t fight his friends. The best fighter in the world competes Saturday, and his name is B.J. Penn.
Penn is probably the only one of the great fighters of today that would literally fight anyone, i have no doubt in my mind that he would even fight Brock if Dana gave him the chance. All the others greats have their excuses of not wanting to move weight or not fighting friends ect. BJ Penn is the greatest fighter to walk this earth.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,705 Posts
I like BJ Penn, but him losing to GSP 2 times(dont care if you think he won) hurts his P4P status, only a LITTLE bit. The P4P ranks are SO close that you can literally have any of them in any given spot. The champions of the UFC are just that good.

I think GSP would take a shot at MW, but its mainly Dana White holding him back. He said numerous times that he wants GSP to stay on WW, and he might stay for a while longer, there are still fighters to fight him...not many though. nobody will beat him at WW out of those who still have a shot at him.

I was this to happen...
BJ Penn = WW
GSP = MW
Silva = LHW after GSP fight
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,151 Posts
The big difference between BJ and Anderson Silva is Anderson is a huge 185 and a good sized 205. BJ at welterweight is small, and even a lightweight he's on the smaller end of the spectrum compared to some of the monsters there. If BJ could go to 170 and match the bigger guys for size, I think he'd stand a much better chance against GSP. He never will, but as long as we recognise that he's never going to be a natural, in shape 170, we can keep things in perspective.

If we consider Anderson as someone who is naturally a 185/205 pound fighter, shouldn't we really consider Penn as at least a 145/155 pound fighter? He's never going to match welterweights for size, so his losses to Hughes and GSP don't really mean much. I consider it like Anderson losing to mid sized heavyweights around 235.

BJ hasn't lost at 155 for a long time. Neither has Anderson at 185, but GSP lost at 170 not all that long ago. If anything, against opposition their own size it's Anderson and BJ who are the best.
 

·
LONGHAIRED COUNTRYBOY
Joined
·
9,814 Posts
He definitely doesn't get his due from the fan boys. Bj has literally traveled the world looking for the greatest challenges. Think about it people, when he took matt hughes belt there were no ww's in the ufc to challenge him so he left the belt and the ufc behind and went and fought machida.

In my opinion when silva steps up to brock or Gsp takes on machida then and only then can they be compared to BJ on the pfp scale.
 

·
-Raids Into Transylvania-
Joined
·
3,029 Posts
Even with a perfect program, Penn is unlikely to ever match St. Pierre’s sheer physicality in the cage. But that does not make him the inferior fighter. Performance is relative to environment. Penn finishes fights; St. Pierre does not. Penn moves up; St. Pierre remains stationary. Penn pursues the best; Silva says he can’t fight his friends. The best fighter in the world competes Saturday, and his name is B.J. Penn.
THIS.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,705 Posts
You dont need to finish every single fight to be considered on top on the P4P. It is domination, whether you dominate him striking and KO him in the 3rd, or dominate him on the ground for 5.

fact is nobody can touch GSP, he hardly even gets hit anymore when he strikes with the best,even if it is striking for 2 minutes out of the whole fight. I am not trying to dog Penn or anything, I have become a big fan of his now that he is more humble and doesnt run him mouth.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,589 Posts
There is one reason for me that takes BJ out of the #1 P4P equation and that's GSP beating him. P4P is usually just speculation, but in this case WE KNOW. So why discuss who is the better fighter? BJ has grown on me since he's not walking on the trash talking douchebag road anymore and I certainly love to see him fight, but for me he just can't be #1 P4P when GSP beat him.
 

·
-Raids Into Transylvania-
Joined
·
3,029 Posts
There is one reason for me that takes BJ out of the #1 P4P equation and that's GSP beating him. P4P is usually just speculation, but in this case WE KNOW. So why discuss who is the better fighter? BJ has grown on me since he's not walking on the trash talking douchebag road anymore and I certainly love to see him fight, but for me he just can't be #1 P4P when GSP beat him.
Yeah I agree, but at the same time I think BJ shows a far more well rounded skill set when he fights. GSP may be more dominated, but in his last fight it was basically 25 minutes of watching him wrestle and move through transitions on the ground combined with a few [failed] submission attempts. When BJ fought Diego it was an absolutely world class display of boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Kickboxing etc. Fact of the matter is he's a far more entertaining and well rounded fighter, even if GSP is more dominant. GSP has essentially found the perfect method to winning fights, and I can't blame him for sticking to it, but as a result it leaves his fights a little stale.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,705 Posts
having stale fights doesnt do anything to your P4P status which people seem to think. There was a whole lot of people claiming GSP has gone down the P4P ladder because he cant finish. Finishing fights is for the fans benefit, and maybe their legacy, but it is not relevant in the P4P ladder.
 

·
-Raids Into Transylvania-
Joined
·
3,029 Posts
having stale fights doesnt do anything to your P4P status which people seem to think. There was a whole lot of people claiming GSP has gone down the P4P ladder because he cant finish. Finishing fights is for the fans benefit, and maybe their legacy, but it is not relevant in the P4P ladder.
Never said it did anything to harm his P4P status, I'm just making the point that BJ may be ranked below GSP in the P4P standings but he brings a far more diverse game when he fights.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
411 Posts
There is one reason for me that takes BJ out of the #1 P4P equation and that's GSP beating him. P4P is usually just speculation, but in this case WE KNOW. So why discuss who is the better fighter? BJ has grown on me since he's not walking on the trash talking douchebag road anymore and I certainly love to see him fight, but for me he just can't be #1 P4P when GSP beat him.
Here's the problem with that analysis: when BJ fights at WW and they announce him at 168 pounds, he's actually in the cage at 168 pounds. GSP cuts to make 170 and is in the cage on fight night between 180-185. That means BJ was giving up between 12-17 pounds in both GSP fights!!! (Almost winning the first one BTW)

How can you say "WE KNOW" who the better P4P fighter based on their head-to-head fight when they were a FULL WEIGHT CLASS apart on fight night? You're telling me if BJ had 10-15 more pounds of muscle on him and they both weighed the same on fight night, that those two GSP fights wouldn't have gone differently? I think they would have.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,115 Posts
There is one reason for me that takes BJ out of the #1 P4P equation and that's GSP beating him. P4P is usually just speculation, but in this case WE KNOW. So why discuss who is the better fighter? BJ has grown on me since he's not walking on the trash talking douchebag road anymore and I certainly love to see him fight, but for me he just can't be #1 P4P when GSP beat him.
But it was an entire weight class above his natural weight. id like to see GSP move down to LW and fight BJ. I wonder if the p4p rankings would change then.
 

·
To the death George
Joined
·
2,306 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
There is one reason for me that takes BJ out of the #1 P4P equation and that's GSP beating him. P4P is usually just speculation, but in this case WE KNOW. So why discuss who is the better fighter? BJ has grown on me since he's not walking on the trash talking douchebag road anymore and I certainly love to see him fight, but for me he just can't be #1 P4P when GSP beat him.
I agree that BJ's p4p status is hurt by the deafeats at WW, but its the fact that he is willing to step up weight to fight the worlds best and still give a good account of himself that makes him the greatest. He doesnt like fighting people that everyone knows he can beat, he wants the fighters that we think can beat him, now thats a true warrior is it not? GSP would rather just stay at WW and beat the fighters everyone knows he can beat, which is still great by all means, but its not what we want to see, we want him to test himself against fighters that we think can beat him and he should too.
 

·
-Raids Into Transylvania-
Joined
·
3,029 Posts
But it was an entire weight class above his natural weight. id like to see GSP move down to LW and fight BJ. I wonder if the p4p rankings would change then.
Me too, but it won't happen man.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,115 Posts
Me too, but it won't happen man.
*sighs*, i know. We can just pray that BJ does the unthinkable, dedicates himself to WW and beats GSP. I dont care what these official p4p rankings state, i know and true fight fans know that BJ is the superior fighter.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nefilim777

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,811 Posts
BJ Penn is just amazing!

He definitely doesn't get his due from the fan boys. Bj has literally traveled the world looking for the greatest challenges. Think about it people, when he took matt hughes belt there were no ww's in the ufc to challenge him so he left the belt and the ufc behind and went and fought machida.

In my opinion when silva steps up to brock or Gsp takes on machida then and only then can they be compared to BJ on the pfp scale.
The reason that he left the UFC was money! Dana didn't wanted him to pay what he was worth at the time he won the WW belt, so he left to K-1! He and Dana had a lot of heat at the time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
239 Posts
How can people say BJ isn't P4P because GSP beat him? People seem to think WW BJ Penn is the same as LW BJ Penn. Before even walking into the octagon that night, Penn was already at a disadvantage. GSP was lucky enough to have a handicap before fighting. Anderson Silva and BJ Penn are the top 2 simply because they dominate their opponents AND finish them.
 

·
To the death George
Joined
·
2,306 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
come fight time, its more than likely BJ weighs the same as he does at WW as he does at LW, and the fact he would be favourite to beat everyone in the division bar GSP is just amazing i think. I wonder how many fights against top MW's GSP would be the favourite for?
 
1 - 20 of 93 Posts
Top